Carrier latch spring mod

[reeps]

I upgraded to the carrier latch spring referenced in an article on the homepage. I noticed cycling got worse (normal ammo and dummy rounds+snap caps). I cut about half a centimeter off, around 2 millimeters from each end. It made a world of difference. Figured I would share the tip. I have a 2013 express.

[Synchronizor]

I really don't know why everyone keeps insisting that the heavy carrier dog follower spring is such an essential upgrade. That spring is not responsible for lifting the carrier, it simply ensures that the carrier dog engages the notch on the bottom of the slide assembly. The extra-heavy spring will make the action harder to work by requiring more force to depress the carrier dog when opening the action, and by increasing friction between the slide assembly and the carrier dog once it's down. By stiffing the shell carrier, it'll also make reloading the magazine less forgiving.

The heavier carrier dog follower spring was a modification intended to ensure function in police shotguns in the hands of officers who would be handling and working the guns in life-or-death situations. They're not going to feel the extra resistance under all that adrenaline. For a competition gun, you're probably better off staying with the standard-weight carrier dog follower spring.

[reeps]

Yeah, it's an appealing upgrade because it is $5. It actually made the 870 worse.

[MStarmer]

Why not put the stock spring back in lieu of an unknown weight modified spring? I would not recommend trimming any springs on any firearm except in rare instances. The example I would use would be like Nordic who ships one length magazine spring and you trim to match your need. Clipping coils here and there on actions can have disastrous consequences.

[reeps]

I'm not sure cutting off 4-5 millimeters of the carrier latch spring is really going to cause any significant damage. The replacement spring was a little shorter but much more taught than the original.

[Synchronizor]

I agree with MStarmer, modifying any component in a gun's trigger group is just asking for trouble. There are plenty of cases of people doing that, and ending up injured or dead because of it. Granted, the carrier dog follower spring isn't the same thing as the sear spring or trigger reset, but it's still part of that whole assembly, and there's a lot of interaction in there.

The 1100 carrier latch spring (which is substituted for the stock 870 carrier dog follower spring in this mod) already has a shorter relaxed (uncompressed) length than the stock 870 part. Its stiffness makes up for this, but it wouldn't take much cutting to make it too short to maintain a constant force on the carrier dog follower, which could result in malfunctions. If you didn't like how the extra-heavy spring felt, just go back to the original one.

[Kentactic]

I made this upgrade and was happy. They put it in police guns for a reason. Anytime i can throw away a factory Extracrappy i mean Express part im happy. More positive anything is a benefit. When under stress the blood leaves your fingers. A stronger spring will hep you FEEL the door as you reload. In my experience a stiffer spring reduces the chance of short loading the tube and ending up with the latch hung up on the shell or the shell behind it. Both arent catostrophic but never good. This is because your required to push harder with the shell to move the door. That energy transfers to the shell going into the magazine harder. My guns are all weapons so YMMV.

[Synchronizor]

They put it in police guns for a reason. Anytime i can throw away a factory Extracrappy i mean Express part im happy. More positive anything is a benefit.

Expresses don't get an "extra-crappy" version of that spring, it's the same part as any other 870, except for the Marine Magnums and the Police models with the 1100 carrier latch spring substituted in. As for the latter, they put it in Police guns to help ensure engagement of the carrier dog in duty guns that see regular, rough action. The function of the carrier dog & slide assemblies do not change with the heavier spring, they're just held together a little more firmly until they engage each other.

They also put specially-built, reinforced bellhousings on transmissions for dedicated racing cars. Just like the 870's carrier dog follower spring, a stronger bellhousing does not change how the clutch or powertrain functions; it simply offers a slightly stiffer ("more positive", if you like) mount between the engine and transmission, and - more importantly - better protects the driver in the event of a violent clutch blowout. It's a good feature to have on a racing vehicle that is run very hard every time it hits the road, but it's by no means a required upgrade for someone's personal sports car that is only driven hard once in a while.

When under stress the blood leaves your fingers. A stronger spring will hep you FEEL the door as you reload. In my experience a stiffer spring reduces the chance of short loading the tube and ending up with the latch hung up on the shell or the shell behind it. Both arent catostrophic but never good. This is because your required to push harder with the shell to move the door. That energy transfers to the shell going into the magazine harder.

But on the other hand, a stiffer spring will make the gun less forgiving to reload, especially for those without a lot of practice. Without the right technique, and with the stress-induced clumsiness you're bringing up, the stiffer shell carrier could cause someone to fumble when trying to insert a shell into the magazine. The stiffer hold in the carrier's up-position could also increase the time needed to untangle a flubbed change-over.

I personally use the 1100 carrier latch spring in my 870, because I carry my shotgun in the woods a lot and I like having the little bit of extra ingress protection in case I drop the gun in some mud. By my measurement, it increases the force required to push the carrier up against the slide assembly from one pound to 1.5 pounds. If you prefer the stiffer spring, you should run it. I have no argument there. I just resist the common perception that the extra-heavy carrier dog follower spring is in any sense a required upgrade, and that the gun is less reliable without it. This simply isn't true, and it's usually based on an incorrect understanding of how the shell carrier functions. Personal preferences aside, a stiffer action and shell carrier would be considered a detriment in a hunting or competition gun.

[Kentactic]

Expresses don't get an "extra-crappy" version of that spring, it's the same part as any other 870, except for the Marine Magnums and the Police models with the 1100 carrier latch spring substituted in. As for the latter, they put it in Police guns to help ensure engagement of the carrier dog in duty guns that see regular, rough action. The function of the carrier dog & slide assemblies do not change with the heavier spring, they're just held together a little more firmly until they engage each other.

Its the same part but its a totally different spring then said police and marine magnums, so not the same part at all. As far as rough regular use, im quite confident in saying my shotgun gets more "Tactical" use then your average cops 870. He might point his at people a lot but im running mine at the range more, and i still need mine to work when/if i need it for a self defense scenario.

They also put specially-built, reinforced bellhousings on transmissions for dedicated racing cars. Just like the 870's carrier dog follower spring, a stronger bellhousing does not change how the clutch or powertrain functions; it simply offers a slightly stiffer ("more positive", if you like) mount between the engine and transmission, and - more importantly - better protects the driver in the event of a violent clutch blowout. It's a good feature to have on a racing vehicle that is run very hard every time it hits the road, but it's by no means a required upgrade for someone's personal sports car that is only driven hard once in a while.

If anybodys car(870) needs a stronger tranny(spring) its mine. A prius(stock express) will get you to the race(gunfight) But a race car(upgraded 870) will get you home too.

But on the other hand, a stiffer spring will make the gun less forgiving to reload, especially for those without a lot of practice. Without the right technique, and with the stress-induced clumsiness you're bringing up, the stiffer shell carrier could cause someone to fumble when trying to insert a shell into the magazine. The stiffer hold in the carrier's up-position could also increase the time needed to untangle a flubbed change-over.

I set my tools up to be the best they can be. If said operator has training issues thats not a reason to make the tool lack in its ability. Its a reason for the operator to train more. But i will say going from the standard spring to the 1100 spring i never once short stroked a shell with the 1100 spring. So even being use to a lighter spring i still saw no issues going to the 1100 spring.

When you cant even feel your fingers hardly from stress your going to be slamming rounds in. This is just like how people accidently pull the trigger under stress. They cant feel the trigger with their finger and they dont know better to stay off it until its time to shoot so they keep fingering the trigger trying to feel it and pow it goes off. So i wouldnt be suprised if my entire thumb went two knuckles deep into the magazine tube under stress. Point here is, theres no negative from a slightly heaveir spring when loading the gun.

I personally use the 1100 carrier latch spring in my 870, because I carry my shotgun in the woods a lot and I like having the little bit of extra ingress protection in case I drop the gun in some mud. By my measurement, it increases the force required to push the carrier up against the slide assembly from one pound to 1.5 pounds. If you prefer the stiffer spring, you should run it. I have no argument there. I just resist the common perception that the extra-heavy carrier dog follower spring is in any sense a required upgrade, and that the gun is less reliable without it. This simply isn't true, and it's usually based on an incorrect understanding of how the shell carrier functions. Personal preferences aside, a stiffer action and shell carrier would be considered a detriment in a hunting or competition gun.

My 870 is a fighting gun. It is recommended to run a heavier spring in a fighting 870 according to Remington being they install them in their fighting shotguns (Police 870). If there was no difference in the two springs performance there wouldnt be two different springs.

[Synchronizor]

Once again Kentactic, I've never said that you shouldn't use the extra-heavy spring in your gun. It obviously makes you more confident in your firearm - reason enough in my book - and you seem to prefer the feel of the stiffer carrier for your "tactical range ops".

But I'll also restate my firm opinion that the extra-heavy spring is in no way a required modification, and is not the best choice for every individual. I'll explain my reasoning for this once more in detail, then I'll drop the matter unless there's a legitimate direction for this topic to go. I don't feel like going in circles, restating points I've already made.

The real, universal, functional benefit of the extra-heavy spring is an approximate 25%-30% increase (based on my measurements) in the force between the depressed carrier dog and slide assembly. This slightly decreases the chances of an engagement failure due to a sharp blow to the gun (hard enough to make two small parts overcome around 4 pounds of spring force due to inertia alone) at just the right moment as the action is being closed, causing the carrier dog to "hop" the notch in the slide assembly as the latter moves forward over it. This one-in-a-million malfunction would prevent the carrier from flipping up, causing the bolt to hit the shell rim and stop about halfway closed. This wouldn't seize the action, but the user would have to bring the slide back and then forward again to close the action and chamber the shell. You can replicate this state with a dummy shell or snap cap by placing the shell on the carrier, closing the action until the shell and carrier flip up, and then manually pushing them back down (don't bother trying to cause the malfunction for real).

It's also possible for this malfunction to be caused by short-stroking the action; bringing the slide back just far enough to release a shell from the magazine, but not the additional 1/32 of an inch or so needed for the notch in the slide assembly to reach and engage the notch on the carrier dog. Obviously, no spring is heavy enough to cause parts to engage if they never reach each other.

Outside of that very unlikely scenario, the standard-weight spring is more than strong enough to ensure proper functioning during even the harshest use. People seem to be fond of saying that the standard-weight spring isn't enough for heavy, rapid shooting; but that's simply not true. The standard carrier dog follower spring used in the pump-action Sportsman 12, 870, & 887 shotguns (P/N F17415), serves the same exact function in the semi-auto 1100 and 11-87 shotguns without a problem. If the standard weight is enough for cycle rates of semi-auto shotguns, it's plenty for a pump-action. We can argue forever about whether a stiffer shell carrier is a benefit or a detriment to the user, but ultimately, that will always be a preferential matter. For some, like Reeps in the OP, the stiffer feel of the action was undesirable and detrimental; a negative effect that is far more significant than a tiny amount of theoretical, added protection against a rare malfunction he'll almost certainly never experience.