The bad news first: I'm 49 and I've never fired a shotgun in my life. I've handled a few 870s - all black tactical models - so I'm familiar with their operation, but I have no idea what the recoil feels like. I just know that you have to hold it properly, and some people hurt themselves because they don't.
I want my first shotgun to be an 870 Police Tactical model, but it seems there are several to choose from, and I want the highest quality. I've heard that there are different levels of quality in these guns, and a higher model is made in a different factory than a lower model. Is this true?
I would like one with a folding stock, but I want the best choice. I bought a folding stock on eBay last year because I planned on buying a shotgun soon after, but I didn't. The stock I bought is an ATI top folding. Guys on another forum said it was not a good choice. They said it will work for a while, and then as the effects of recoil take their toll the stock will break, possibly while I'm using the shotgun in a defensive situation.
My LGS has a Police model (Remington 870 Express Tactical Special Ops Folder 81402 12ga) with a Remington top folding steel stock, which I know is better. That gun comes with an 18" barrel, and is about $900CDN. It's kind of a favorite choice for me right now. Other Police models are about $520. Members on the SIGTalk forum said what I said above about different models from different factories. Guys at my LGS say that is bunk. They said the Police models are all the same. The only difference is in how you dress it up. I like to buy once and buy right.
I would tend to think a 3 1/2" is the best choice, even if I'm mostly going to shoot 3". It's nice to have the greater capability, in case you need it.
I also tend to think top folding is better than side folding. With my ATI stock I can install a shell holder on the stock, and I have the ATI 5 shell holder. I just visited a friend today who has a 7 shell holder on the side of his shotgun. I don't know who makes that. I wonder if the 7 shell holder will fit on the ATI stock.
One of the biggest influences for me wanting a shotgun was the movie Wanted: Dead of Alive with Rutger Hauer. But I am aware of how unrealistic Hollywood is, and how inaccurate representations of firearms are in the movies. It looks cool on the screen, but it's not realistic, or not practical. Only ownership and experience will retrain my brainwashed brain.
Best Tactical Folding Stock
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Synchronizor
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Re: Best Tactical Folding Stock
Police 870s are a different line than Express Tacticals. They're both 870s, and the people who are telling you that they're made differently don't know what they're talking about, but you do seem to be mixing up the two product lines. Police 870s are specifically marketed to law enforcement and military customers. Civilians can buy them through a dealer, but you won't see them in Remington's mainstream catalogs or website. Express Tacticals are guns from Remington's no-frills Express 870 line, with black plastic furniture, short barrels, and usually magazine extensions or extended magazine tubes; rather than the hunting configurations of other Expresses. The main difference between Police & Express Tactical 870s is that the Police models have a heavier-duty Parkerized finish, while the Express has a really basic matte bluing. There are a couple other minor differences, see this post for a detailed comparison, but they're essentially the same thing mechanically. If you're willing to spend the money, the Police models are very nice guns due to the heavy-duty finish and upgraded furniture, but don't feel like you're getting something fundamentally inferior if you go for an Express.
One big thing to keep in mind if you're buying an Express Tactical is that many of them now come with special single-piece 6-round magazine tubes (as opposed to the standard 4-round magazine tube with a magazine extension added onto the end). These guns are fine if you only want a range toy or defensive shotgun, but if you want to be able to get another barrel and use the gun for something else, you really should get something built on a standard receiver.
As for recoil, shotguns are definitely known for their recoil, and that reputation is well-deserved. Large-gauge magnum loads can be downright brutal if a shooter isn't prepared, especially with poor technique, or a gun that's too light and/or doesn't fit well. But the thing to remember is that shotshells can be loaded with a very wide variety of payloads, and those payloads can be pushed to all kinds of different velocities. This goes especially for break-action or manually-operated repeating shotguns chambered in 12ga, since there's no autoloading action that needs a certain amount of gas or recoil to work properly, and the 12ga is by far the most versatile bore size out there:
Since recoil scales according to the square of ejecta momentum, the 12ga's range of possible recoil levels is extremely wide - possibly the widest in the firearms world. A very light 12ga load with 3/4 of an ounce of shot (a similar payload to a 28ga or 3" .410 shell) can have as little as one tenth the recoil of a full-house, tooth-rattling 3 1/2" 12ga super magnum throwing 2 1/4 ounces of shot. So it's really up to you how hard you want to hit yourself. I would suggest starting with some low-to-moderate target loads to see how your shotgun behaves and figure your technique out, then work up and find where your limits are. Keep in mind that recoil is inversely proportional to the gun's weight (increasing the gun's mass by 10% decreases free recoil energy by 10%); and that the effects of recoil are cumulative, so a 3" hunting magnum can be perfectly tolerable on a turkey hunt where you fire just a few over the day, while you'll want much lighter loads to take out and shoot 4 rounds of 25 clay targets on a trap range.
It should go without saying that an important element in how you feel a given amount of recoil is the point where the gun meets your body. A stock can make or break things when it comes to shooting comfort, and thus, I would recommend against a folding stock, at least to start with. Folding stocks give up a significant amount of comfort for compactness, and unless you really have to make your 870 fit in as small a space as possible, it's generally not worth the trade-off. Get an 870 with a traditional semi-grip stock, install a good recoil pad if the gun you buy comes with a poor one (quality pre-fit recoil pads are available as drop-on upgrades for both Police and Express stocks), and get some experience with that before you go spending money on tacti-cool aftermarket stocks.
You also mentioned 3 1/2"-chambered 870s. That's certainly an option if you want the most versatile gun possible, but if you look at the graph I attached above, you can see that just a 3" chamber still gives you a very wide range of payloads to pick from. 3 1/2" shells can offer some advantages for a few hunting applications (large-game buckshot hunting, extreme-range turkey, and waterfowling with steel shot), but it's really overkill for most things, and a skilled hunter with a 3" shell will do better than a novice with magnum-itis any day of the week. If you're getting this gun primarily for combat/defensive or recreational use, I would say stick to a normal 870 Magnum. Super Magnum 870s are a little more complicated in order to cycle 3 1/2" shells with a standard-length action (the 870 was developed nearly 40 years before the 3 1/2" super magnum was introduced), they can be harder to find parts for, and there's no such thing as a Super Magnum Police or Express Tactical; the only 870 Super Magnums are hunting Expresses that at the very least would need their barrels custom-shortened to be configured as a riot gun (you can swap a short Police or Express Tactical barrel onto a Super Magnum receiver, but then you'll be back to a 3" chamber, so it defeats the purpose).
Anyway, I hope this wall of text helps. Don't hesitate to ask if you have further questions; you're being very smart by trying to learn before making your purchase. Many folks just go out and buy what looks cool on the rack, or what the fellow behind the counter is trying to sell at the moment, and that's a great way to end up with the wrong gun.
For more introduction to the world of shotguns, check out my Shotguns 101 playlist. Only three videos so far, I know, but a fourth one on shell lengths should (knock on wood) be online next week, and a fifth on recoil is in production.
One big thing to keep in mind if you're buying an Express Tactical is that many of them now come with special single-piece 6-round magazine tubes (as opposed to the standard 4-round magazine tube with a magazine extension added onto the end). These guns are fine if you only want a range toy or defensive shotgun, but if you want to be able to get another barrel and use the gun for something else, you really should get something built on a standard receiver.
As for recoil, shotguns are definitely known for their recoil, and that reputation is well-deserved. Large-gauge magnum loads can be downright brutal if a shooter isn't prepared, especially with poor technique, or a gun that's too light and/or doesn't fit well. But the thing to remember is that shotshells can be loaded with a very wide variety of payloads, and those payloads can be pushed to all kinds of different velocities. This goes especially for break-action or manually-operated repeating shotguns chambered in 12ga, since there's no autoloading action that needs a certain amount of gas or recoil to work properly, and the 12ga is by far the most versatile bore size out there:
- Frame from an upcoming Shotguns 101 video.
- 12ga shot weight capabilities 960.JPG (33.9 KiB) Viewed 5571 times
It should go without saying that an important element in how you feel a given amount of recoil is the point where the gun meets your body. A stock can make or break things when it comes to shooting comfort, and thus, I would recommend against a folding stock, at least to start with. Folding stocks give up a significant amount of comfort for compactness, and unless you really have to make your 870 fit in as small a space as possible, it's generally not worth the trade-off. Get an 870 with a traditional semi-grip stock, install a good recoil pad if the gun you buy comes with a poor one (quality pre-fit recoil pads are available as drop-on upgrades for both Police and Express stocks), and get some experience with that before you go spending money on tacti-cool aftermarket stocks.
You also mentioned 3 1/2"-chambered 870s. That's certainly an option if you want the most versatile gun possible, but if you look at the graph I attached above, you can see that just a 3" chamber still gives you a very wide range of payloads to pick from. 3 1/2" shells can offer some advantages for a few hunting applications (large-game buckshot hunting, extreme-range turkey, and waterfowling with steel shot), but it's really overkill for most things, and a skilled hunter with a 3" shell will do better than a novice with magnum-itis any day of the week. If you're getting this gun primarily for combat/defensive or recreational use, I would say stick to a normal 870 Magnum. Super Magnum 870s are a little more complicated in order to cycle 3 1/2" shells with a standard-length action (the 870 was developed nearly 40 years before the 3 1/2" super magnum was introduced), they can be harder to find parts for, and there's no such thing as a Super Magnum Police or Express Tactical; the only 870 Super Magnums are hunting Expresses that at the very least would need their barrels custom-shortened to be configured as a riot gun (you can swap a short Police or Express Tactical barrel onto a Super Magnum receiver, but then you'll be back to a 3" chamber, so it defeats the purpose).
Anyway, I hope this wall of text helps. Don't hesitate to ask if you have further questions; you're being very smart by trying to learn before making your purchase. Many folks just go out and buy what looks cool on the rack, or what the fellow behind the counter is trying to sell at the moment, and that's a great way to end up with the wrong gun.
For more introduction to the world of shotguns, check out my Shotguns 101 playlist. Only three videos so far, I know, but a fourth one on shell lengths should (knock on wood) be online next week, and a fifth on recoil is in production.
Re: Best Tactical Folding Stock
Thank you, Synchronizer. That is helpful info. I will aim for a Police 3" model when I get to the store. The friend I visited today said he can swap his barrel with a 30" to go hunting with. That is what I want. That would allow me to have a home defense shotgun, and be able to go hunting with friends sooner. I think you really have to get past the cool factor to make the wisest choice. Firearms these days are marketed to people who have no experience, like me, and who don't know anything about what they're getting into. And men who've been hunting and shotgunning for 30 years just laugh at us and facepalm. I'm doing my best to learn, but there's a lot of misinformation to sort through.
I'm thinking a telescoping Magpul is probably a better choice than a folding stock. With no experience, I tend to exaggerate the significance or benefits of certain features, like portability. The Mossberg JIC is a case in point. The cool factor is misleading. So is the preference of a 14" barrel over an 18 1/2", and the preference of having a pistol grip.
I just need to get a shotgun and get out and bring home some meat so I know what I'm talking about. SIGs are fun, but I'm limiting myself.
I'm thinking a telescoping Magpul is probably a better choice than a folding stock. With no experience, I tend to exaggerate the significance or benefits of certain features, like portability. The Mossberg JIC is a case in point. The cool factor is misleading. So is the preference of a 14" barrel over an 18 1/2", and the preference of having a pistol grip.
I just need to get a shotgun and get out and bring home some meat so I know what I'm talking about. SIGs are fun, but I'm limiting myself.
Re: Best Tactical Folding Stock
I went back to my LGS today and learned a little more about the 870. The guy behind the counter said the barrel can be changed in all 870s, and he took one apart to show me. I've never seen it done before, so I was a bit amazed by how easy it was.
After some internet research on the 870 I've learned about the differences between the 870P and the 870 Express, and I am strongly leaning toward the Police model, but they seem hard to find. I need to make some phone calls on Monday to ask about availability. Express Tactical models are all over the market. I know they are not a bad choice, and I hope to own a few some day, but I'd really like a Police model.
Also, I've decided on a tactical non-folding stock, possibly adjustable. What kills me is that so little attention has been given by tactical accessories manufacturers to ammo storage in the stock. One company makes a fixed non-adjustable stock that holds one shell. Seriously? One shell? Another company makes one that holds three. I'm starting to think that a folding stock just adds complication to potentially life and death situations where stress will be high and thinking ability will be severely hindered. Fixed stocks are simple. I need to start thinking that way. I understand why experienced shooters shake their heads at inexperienced guys who come into the sport informed by Rambo and want all the cool toys. I'm trying to shake that. I won't know much at all until I buy a shotgun and get out with it to shoot.
After some internet research on the 870 I've learned about the differences between the 870P and the 870 Express, and I am strongly leaning toward the Police model, but they seem hard to find. I need to make some phone calls on Monday to ask about availability. Express Tactical models are all over the market. I know they are not a bad choice, and I hope to own a few some day, but I'd really like a Police model.
Also, I've decided on a tactical non-folding stock, possibly adjustable. What kills me is that so little attention has been given by tactical accessories manufacturers to ammo storage in the stock. One company makes a fixed non-adjustable stock that holds one shell. Seriously? One shell? Another company makes one that holds three. I'm starting to think that a folding stock just adds complication to potentially life and death situations where stress will be high and thinking ability will be severely hindered. Fixed stocks are simple. I need to start thinking that way. I understand why experienced shooters shake their heads at inexperienced guys who come into the sport informed by Rambo and want all the cool toys. I'm trying to shake that. I won't know much at all until I buy a shotgun and get out with it to shoot.
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Synchronizor
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Re: Best Tactical Folding Stock
Like I said, start basic, get to know the gun, and then decide whether or not you really need all the extras that aftermarket companies are trying to sell you.
SpeedFeed makes shotgun stocks with built-in shell tubes built in that hold up to four extra shells (two per side). They're fixed stocks, and you can get them in either a traditional semi-grip form, or with a pistol grip.
A lot of Police 870s come with factory-equipped SpeedFeed synthetic stocks, either with or without the shell tubes.
SpeedFeed makes shotgun stocks with built-in shell tubes built in that hold up to four extra shells (two per side). They're fixed stocks, and you can get them in either a traditional semi-grip form, or with a pistol grip.
A lot of Police 870s come with factory-equipped SpeedFeed synthetic stocks, either with or without the shell tubes.