AMMO!!

[spacecowboy237]

What do you gents prefer. If you don't know by now I'm just starting and I've only ran about 100 rounds through my 870. Most have been Winchester 00 buck and a few of the same in Remington. Sounds silly but I like the red shells better than the green.

I'm gonna play with slugs and some bird shot maybe this weekend. I do have a few questions however.

high velocity/magnum vs. low recoil is there really any diff or benefit?

2-3/4 vs 3"? Again. . . any diff or benefits?

For home defense, do you go buck or bird? I've read that most people go with the buck shot. I've been thinking recently about my living situation however. It's a 2 bed duplex and we live up top. If I were to be in a breakin situation the hall that leads to the bedrooms is about 15 feet from the door. Also the door swings open and the intruder would not be able to see me behind waiting to start blasting. This make me think that bird shot may be better. The walls aint that thick, we have a big bay window in the line of fire and the street is basically rowhomes. Just thoughts.


And finally in general. What are some of your favorite shells?

TIA guys.

[Synchronizor]

high velocity/magnum vs. low recoil is there really any diff or benefit?

2-3/4 vs 3"? Again. . . any diff or benefits?

Magnum vs. non-magnum (also called express) with buckshot pretty much comes down to pellet count versus recoil. Pattern size will not usually change much in HD situations. Here're a few example Remington buckshot loads (Winchester's ammo site sucks):

2.75" Express 00B, 9 pellets, 1325 fps
2.75" Magnum 00B, 12 pellets, 1290 fps
3" Magnum 00B, 15 pellets, 1225 fps

The pellet counts you can see for yourself, each step up provides 3 more pellets, and ideally 3 more holes in the other guy. As for recoil; free recoil energy is theoretically proportional to the square of the payload's momentum, which allows for an easy - if a bit rough - comparison thanks to the magic of fractions:

12-pellet recoil/9-pellet recoil = (12*1290)^2/(9*1325)^2 = 1.69

15-pellet recoil/9-pellet recoil = (15*1225)^2/(9*1325)^2 = 2.37

So, the 12-pellet load would have roughly 169% of the recoil of the standard 9-pellet load, and the 15-pellet 3" load would have about 237% of the recoil (plus, you may lose some magazine capacity with the longer 3" shells). Again, this is pretty rough napkin math using some simplified relationships (the mass of the wad, buffering and powder also plays a small part in recoil), but you get the idea. The question is, is having 33.3% or 66.6% more pellets worth 69% or 137% more recoil?

The general consensus I've seen - and I tend to agree - is that no, the recoil isn't worth it. At least, not for typical home defense situations. Against humans at close ranges, a normal 12ga express buckshot load is already an extremely effective stopper. As long as you can put your shot in the right place, adding a few more pellets doesn't really dial up the lethality very much. On the other hand, a graze or a clean miss is just that, no matter how many pellets the pattern contains, and that's where the recoil trade-off comes in. The heavier the recoil, the harder it is to control your shotgun, and the longer it takes to bring your gun back on target after a shot - especially for smaller-statured or less-experienced shooters.

To paraphrase from Massad Ayoob, if a shot with 9 pellets misses or otherwise fails to stop an attacker, you don't need a few more pellets in that first failed shot, you need a second shot in a more effective location as quickly as possible.


Now, if we assume that an express load is superior to magnum loads on the basis of recoil, the next logical question is: are low-recoil loads better than express loads?

Low-recoil loads usually employ slightly reduced pellet counts and/or lower velocities. Here're a couple examples:

Remington Managed-Recoil 00B, 8 pellets, 1200 fps
Fiocchi Low-Recoil "00B" (the pellets are actually more like 0B), 9 pellets, 1150 fps

Comparing these to our benchmark 9-pellet 00B express load:

Remington low-recoil/Remington express = (8*1200)^2/(9*1325)^2 = 0.65
Fiocchi low-recoil/Remington express = (9*.32^3*1290)^2/(9*.33^3*1325)^2 = 0.63 (the added .32^3/.33^3 factor accounts for the smaller pellets used by Fiocchi)

So here, you see a significant decrease in recoil compared to the express load, but you're still delivering 8 or 9 pellets with enough velocity and sectional density to penetrate into the vitals of a human at close range. I'd generally consider this a win-win for close-range home defense. The lower velocity does reduce buckshot's effectiveness at longer ranges or through barriers like walls or car bodies, but those probably aren't major concerns for you.

For home defense, do you go buck or bird? I've read that most people go with the buck shot. I've been thinking recently about my living situation however. It's a 2 bed duplex and we live up top. If I were to be in a breakin situation the hall that leads to the bedrooms is about 15 feet from the door. Also the door swings open and the intruder would not be able to see me behind waiting to start blasting. This make me think that bird shot may be better. The walls aint that thick, we have a big bay window in the line of fire and the street is basically rowhomes. Just thoughts.

The issue with choosing birdshot for its reduced penetration through walls is that that also means reduced penetration in people. Buckshot or birdshot - shotgun pellets are just round metal balls, they don't operate under different rules in different materials. Something that won't penetrate drywall won't penetrate a person, and anything that will reach the vitals of a human will also go through drywall. You can't really have it both ways, you have to decide what the priority is in a home defense situation, and that's generally going to be the inconsiderate individual or individuals threatening you or your family.

If you're concerned about your neighbors, you may want to consider smaller buckshot sizes like #1B or #4B. At standard express velocities, these smaller sizes still have enough sectional density to reach the vitals of a human, but they shed velocity more rapidly in flight and are hampered more by barriers like drywall and siding. They also give you higher pellet counts than something like 00B. I load 27-pellet express #4 buckshot (Remington) in my shotgun for home defense.

It's also important to have a home defense plan. As you decide where you'll be gathering your family in the event of a break-in, you can consider where your shots are going to be going from that stronghold location. See if you can place a backstop behind where you would fire at an intruder who tries to get into your stronghold area. Multiple walls, a bookcase, furniture, it doesn't take a whole lot to scatter and slow down a buckshot pattern, even if it's not small or low-velocity.

[spacecowboy237]

Great help. As a newb I have not considered all these combinations. I do like the idea of staying with buck, but honestly was not aware that you can get a higher pellet count with a little less velocity. Thanks for the brands too.

Buying our first gun has really opened up a lot of thought on things that ill probably start asking in other threads. We already have our plan for fire escape and such, but definitely have to prep for break-ins and even if ther were to come a time when we have to be on the move. Bug out Bags/Rations/ Survival type stuff.

I see you have a vid on Youtube about ammo size so I'll def be checking that out.

[DaveC]

Past ammunition/cartridge discussions--geared to home defense, which typically consumes far more band-width than more prosaic hunting discussions and so on:

tactical-home-defense/ammo-t1767.html

My own opinion, informed by Syncrhonizor's excellent points above, does not change what I've said here previously:

I live in an old, dilapidated, 1920s era "shotgun shack" 12-feet wide. There is a lot of traffic and foot traffic around my home, but I do have fences and locking gates. Nonetheless, my next-door neighbors, who live in similar shacks, are quite close.

So, in the gritty, big city, I use Federal 2-3/4" No. 4 buckshot. My "other shotgun" is loaded with Remington No. 1 buckshot. The "plan B" gun is for if I have to essentially abandon the structure and move out of doors. The No.1 buckshot is a compromise between the "traditional" 00 buck and the old "stakeout squad" LE No. 4 buck. When I lived in a more suburban environment, I used Winchester "Win-Lite" 00 buckshot. Any "reduced recoil" buckshot load, to include so-called "tactical" buckshot loads, will be a good HD load.

I do not favor the use of bird shot except for its intended purpose: hunting birds.

[DaveC]

Oh, and Syncrhonizor, thank you very, very much for the thorough, detailed answer!!!
Extremely good answer. "Napkin math" ha!

OP: Yeah. House fires. I'm flat terrified of house fires. If you've seen 'em, and the aftermath, it is really crazy how quickly they can destroy a home... Fire extinguishers to get to the exits are probably much more likely to be "essential" than any HD plan...Fortunately.

What kinds of natural or man made disasters are common in your area (Oh. Wait. Philly right?! ) Let me rephrase that. I use a check-list so I can have water, food, some basic sanitary supplies, light, the ability to treat water, and some good first aid, stash of anti-biotics (Just get a prescription filled but don't take them and try to "tough it out" if possible... ) and some back-up transportation. Bicycle in my case!

Good luck to you! Cheers.

[spacecowboy237]

Dave C you are quite the character around these part but you make great points.

1. Living in the NE we don't really experience any Natural Disasters. The weather patterns are timid in comparison to areas that deal with extreme weather (floods, hurricanes, Quakes. . ). I'd expect mass rioting first over anything else. As far as getting out in need My Jeep is already stocked with "Jeepy" stuff. Flares, jacks, ropes and general car necessities. We, as a family however are not and thats our next step. You give a good start up list though and that is appreciated.

2. Any reason why you choose certain Ammo brands over the other. You mentioned Federal for one gun then Rems for another, or is this just part of your "eclecticism"?

[DaveC]

Ammo: Simply what patterns best out of the particular shotgun. That's the best policy rather than "brand loyalty."

For my own cylinder-bored Mossberg barrel on my Rem. 870, I've never had tighter patterns than with Federal low-recoil 00 buck, and the No.4 buck ain't too shabby either.

[Synchronizor]

If you want to see some practical testing, this article summarizes a number of tests of birdshot, buckshot, and slugs in ballistics gel. It's not written very well, but it'll give you a general idea of how different shot types & sizes compare.