Ammo

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
DaveC
Addict Shotgunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by DaveC » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:28 pm

Oh, I quite agree with that assessment, Synchronizor.

My "asterisked" * choices show I'm no fan of particularly "exotic" ammunition choices for HD. :roll:
Lessee... Yup: All 2-3/4" shells, with recoil reduced loads preferred, No. 4 buckshot for inside, No. 1 buck and good old-fashioned buckshot. ;)

A much shorter list, certainly! As far as the Remington "UHD" loads--which one hopes were discontinued--the idea was to make a dense-for-size (I'm sure you engineers have a snazzy term for what I'm getting at..."denser?") birdshot to cater to the birdshot for HD crowd... That and charge about three or four times more per shell than the demonstrably effective 00 buck on offer for decades. :!:

I tried to include 20-gauge and even 16-gauge because I don't know what type of Rem. 870 is being discussed...

As far as resurrecting the olde-timey "buck and ball" load, I also agree completely. I'm not sure what purpose it serves unless one is, say, defending Bunker Hill from a column of scarlet-clad line infantry on His Majesty's Service to drive upstart "Brother Jonathan" colonists and rustics from the outskirts of Boston... Certainly smoothbores have been loaded that way for military applications in the 18th and 19th centuries... :geek:

These days, it appears that while various "multi-shot" sizes have been experimented with, the "go-to" loads have typically been 2-3/4" 9 pellet 00 buckshot. That was the load used in the so-called "Malaya Emergency" where the Brits and Commonwealth squared off against communist MRLA guerrillas in very dense, triple canopy jungle where ambushes were frequent and ranges startlingly short. One of the few combat uses of shotguns, e.g. for "antipersonnel" use that generated a detailed study.

Moving to U.S. police/Law Enforcement and defensive use generates a much, much larger possible "data set" and a similarly narrow set of criteria: 00 buck was renowned as a "fight stopper" during the Prohibition gangster era and the Depression era "motor bandits" using V-8 automobiles alike. Police departments concerned about liability issues and "over penetration" adopted No.4 buck. Complaints about its lack of efficacy in penetrating cover, such as automobile bodies and so on, led to evaluations of No.1 buckshot as something of a "compromise." This, in turn, stimulated a bunch of ghastly "wound ballisticians" to tabulate that the combined surface area of a load of 16 pellet no. 1 buck from a 2-3/4" promised to be even more devastating than the older 00 buck. As you've pointed out, some of those "00" buck pellets are actually "0" aught, so I'm not sure... :?: Certainly, the combined pellet load of a No.1 buck 2-3/4" shell is heavier than the 9 pellet buck load, without a commensurate increase in felt recoil.

Thanks for the critique of the "broad field" of choices! The "choice" is actually much narrower... But on the other hand, the sheer versatility of loads available to the Rem. 870 shotgun user is a very interesting subject.
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

DaveC
Addict Shotgunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by DaveC » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:43 pm

Rather than rely on an assemblage of anecdotes, most defensive and "tactical" trainers these days hew to the "FBI standards" that at least 12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin is desirable in a situation where lethal force, e.g. shooting is warranted and, ultimately, necessary. No birdshot achieves this result, although perhaps some of the Hevi-shot loads that have been developed do. It's basically a question of "which size buckshot" and the advisability of using slugs... In which case most ordinary folks these days would ape what LEOs have been doing for quite some time now: Use a carbine or rifle.
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

User avatar
Synchronizor
Elite Shotgunner
Posts: 3022
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:04 am
Location: The Inland Northwest
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by Synchronizor » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:28 am

DaveC wrote: It's basically a question of "which size buckshot" and the advisability of using slugs... In which case most ordinary folks these days would ape what LEOs have been doing for quite some time now: Use a carbine or rifle.
You may know better than me, but from what I've heard and seen in cruisers in my area, police are using rifles to complement - rather than replace - their shotguns.

For home defense though, there's something to be said for being able to have the unparalleled close-in lead delivery of buckshot while still being able to reach out with a quick slug changeover. And let's be honest here, even in rural areas, threats to the home from outside a reasonable smoothbore slug range are not something normal civilians should be overly concerned with.

User avatar
Automag
Senior Shotgunner
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 2:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Ammo

Post by Automag » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:36 am

Synchronizor wrote:
Target loads are a very poor choice for personal defense. The birdshot vs. buckshot debate may never die, but even proponents of birdshot agree that the very small birdshot sizes used in target loads are close to useless against large creatures;
I agree with that completely. Dick Cheney shot his hunting buddy in the face with birdshot and just gave him a little headache. Sorry i couldn't resist. :lol:
Image Gun Control Means Using Both Hands.

Jamie
Experienced Shotgunner
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:55 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by Jamie » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:58 pm

It's just the wife and I at home now, 00 buck in the house, (1 buck might be even better, if I could find some). If for some reason the 'fight' moves outside, depending on the range, 00 buck with Flite Control or slugs. If they're past slug range, the AR.

12GAfun
Super Shotgunner
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:43 am

Re: Ammo

Post by 12GAfun » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:21 am

I did some tests at my range with some 6-8 shot loads, I know bird shot, I setup 3 targets on one target I had a old Carhart canvas coat wrapped around it and zipped up. I shot it at the same distance it would be in my home from my bedroom to the front door about 15 feet. The #7 and 8 shot went through the coat and into the box, I even put a few 2 liters inside the box and it even just went into 1 of them.
So I don't care what is being shot out of a 12 gauge shotgun, I wouldn't want to get hit by any of it. Thank you. I wish I still had the video but I updated my computer to a new HDD drive and lost a bunch of range videos from 2014 because I was to excited about the SSD drive I forgot to back up anything. I thought goggle would have them in there cloud but nope.

DaveC
Addict Shotgunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by DaveC » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:32 pm

Jamie wrote:It's just the wife and I at home now, 00 buck in the house, (1 buck might be even better, if I could find some). If for some reason the 'fight' moves outside, depending on the range, 00 buck with Flite Control or slugs. If they're past slug range, the AR.
Srsly? "Past slug range?" :?:

Move outta Baghdad bro!
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

DaveC
Addict Shotgunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: Ammo

Post by DaveC » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:39 pm

12GAfun wrote:I did some tests at my range with some 6-8 shot loads, I know bird shot, I setup 3 targets on one target I had a old Carhart canvas coat wrapped around it and zipped up. I shot it at the same distance it would be in my home from my bedroom to the front door about 15 feet. The #7 and 8 shot went through the coat and into the box, I even put a few 2 liters inside the box and it even just went into 1 of them.
So I don't care what is being shot out of a 12 gauge shotgun, I wouldn't want to get hit by any of it. Thank you. I wish I still had the video but I updated my computer to a new HDD drive and lost a bunch of range videos from 2014 because I was to excited about the SSD drive I forgot to back up anything. I thought goggle would have them in there cloud but nope.
Still in Philly? :!: I just saw some crazy video footage of a drive-by shooting from a BMX bike from the "City o' brotherly love!" :shock:

No one would want to be hit by any projectile from a firearm. Respectfully, you really should care what is being shot out of a 12-gauge shotgun. There may be some new-fangled alloy BB-size shot that'd work, but in no case would I ever use non-buckshot for a defensive shotgun. No.4 buck is the lightest shot I'd use. The only LE use of birdshot in shotguns I'm aware of is by authoritarian states as a "riot control" munition where the cops pepper unruly, obstreperous subjects. For LE, the go-to load for much of the late 19th and 20th century has been 00 buck. There is a reason for that. With a defensive shotgun, you wouldn't shoot at all, ever, unless you intended to stop an imminent threat to your, or a loved one's life. What load will tilt the odds of a stop in your favor?
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

Danny66
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:40 am

Re: Ammo

Post by Danny66 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:28 pm

About shot size for HD...wasn't there a concept of alternating slugs, with 00 buck shot? Is that still considered effective, or is it not used anymore? If so, I'd assume you'd put the 00 Buck first, then the slug?

I have an 870, but I've only ever used it for bird hunting, and have no experience with using slugs. I saw a smooth bore barrel on Midway's website; is this ok for firing a slug?

Also, what is the best choke choice for shooting 00 Buck for HD?

Thanks

User avatar
UltimateGuns
Experienced Shotgunner
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:53 pm
Location: Florence, KY
Contact:

Re: Ammo

Post by UltimateGuns » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:15 am

timriley0927 wrote:I read that target rounds are good
I really don't think target ammo is a good idea for a defensive round.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest