Foolish Noobie Question(s)

General discussion about Remington 870 shotgun.
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Pastor Doogie
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Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by Pastor Doogie »

I bought my first Remington 870 20 gauge earlier this year from a guy at Church in like-new, just out of the box condition. I've probably put 200-400 shells of all kinds of birdshot, buckshot, slugs, and a few sabot slugs through the gun. I've been upgrading the gun ever since, and I LOVE THIS SHOTGUN. :D

Last week at the range my gun jammed on nearly every pump. :cry: Every shell loaded by pump jammed between the carrier latch, the bolt, and the top of the barrel. (A real mess) The Forend seemed to bind at both ends of the stroke (I was not short stroking the shotgun).

I disassembled the gun and lubricated the trigger assembly and action bars with Rem Oil.
My problem was immediately solved!! :oops:

Now I need some help learning from my mistake(s):

1. How frequently do you lubricate the trigger assembly and action bars of your 870?

2. When you do lubricate your 870, which lubricant seems to work best for your gun? What's your favorite gun lubricant?

Regards,
Pastor Doogie
“Multiple hits do count significantly.”
—Dr. Dennis Tobin M.D.
(Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall & Sanow Paladin Press, 1992 pg. 10.)
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Synchronizor
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by Synchronizor »

Welcome to the forum.

By "carrier latch", do you mean the shell carrier? The 870 is not a lube-sensitive gun, it sounds like your problem was due to some mechanical issue, and not a lack of lubrication. My guess would be that you accidentally put something together wrong while cleaning or modifying things, and then when you took the gun apart and lubricated everything, you happened to fix whatever was messed up. What are some of the things you've added to your gun?

As for your questions, I don't lubricate my trigger plate assembly very often. Once in a while, when I'm doing a full take-down and cleaning (after shooting, I usually just clean the barrel bore & choke tube, and give the exterior finish an oiled wipe-down), I'll put just a drop of oil on a couple contact points, and that's it. Excess oil is not something you want in your TPA, as it will collect foreign particles like dust and powder residue, which can actually hurt function and accelerate wear.

The same goes for the action bars; once the gun is broken in and the action bars & their channels are smoothed out, they need very little lubrication. Sometimes I'll spray a little oil in there, but mostly for corrosion protection when I'm not going to be shooting the gun for a while. Otherwise, I tend to leave them dry, so gunk won't build up in there.
DaveC
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by DaveC »

1. Very seldom. I tend to leave my defense guns pretty dry. I'm not sure when I I last put a drop or two of CLP on the trigger assembly points. I guess I'll go check!

2. I have way too many toxic and carcinogenic chemicals around my house for my taste, and belatedly, I've begun to view this as a problem. For now, I have something like a lifetime supply of CLP and Hoppe's No.9 solvent, some RIG grease and some honest-to-goodness Lubriplate for my M1 Garands. As soon as the CLP runs out, I'm going to switch completely to Ballistol, which is what I use for my muzzleloaders, and every now and then, on my milsurp rifles. Believe-it-or-not, one of my preferred *solvents* [not preservative oil] for shotgun barrels is WD40...

I'm glad you got your problem fixed! ;)
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Pastor Doogie
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by Pastor Doogie »

Well... I failed to mention some of the upgrades I made to my 20 gauge that may have had an effect on the reliability. Most were suggestions from the website and I'm certain most were Great Upgrades.

1. Non MIM Extractor (website) :D
2. Nordic Components +4 Magazine Tube (my idea/ and website) :D
3. Boyd's American Plainsman Stock--really helps me hit clays a lot better. (my idea) :D :D
4. Vang Comp Follower (website) :D

BUT the 2 I think could have possibly affected this are...

5. Remington 870 (Police Model) Heavy Carrier Latch Spring (website)
AND
6. Remington 870 (Police Model) Heavy Sear Spring (8 lbs.)--also website.

Is it likely that the increased/ new spring tension from the sear, and the carrier latch spring were upgrades intended for 12 gauge only, and not a good idea for a 20 gauge like mine?

For me, this gun is about breaking clays, and defending the home when necessary. I thought a heavier trigger pull weight might be an advantage on a defensive shotgun, and that a heavier carrier latch spring might prevent problems feeding.

I get the feeling I've over-modified this gun? :oops:

Thanks,
“Multiple hits do count significantly.”
—Dr. Dennis Tobin M.D.
(Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall & Sanow Paladin Press, 1992 pg. 10.)
DaveC
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by DaveC »

Could be... My sense is that any LE-type Rem. 870 parts or modifications are intended for 12-gauge models and not 20-gauge... In Law Enforcement circles, the 20-gauge only appeared every now and then in specialized stakeout or "whippit gun" use, the typical police cruiser-type would inevitably have been a 12-gauge.

A 20 gauge is probably ideal for defensive use, and you should have a lot of fun using it for shotgun sports. I'd call the manufacturers and/or suppliers of the parts you've got and see if these are 12-gauge only pieces and parts?

Hope you get it running again. I'm not sure if the 20-gauge has the dimples in the end of the tube-magazine? If so, those would have to go before an extended magazine tube and spring were installed. I stick with the 4+1 on mine for that reason...

Good luck!
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Synchronizor
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by Synchronizor »

Pastor Doogie wrote:Is it likely that the increased/ new spring tension from the sear, and the carrier latch spring were upgrades intended for 12 gauge only, and not a good idea for a 20 gauge like mine?

For me, this gun is about breaking clays, and defending the home when necessary. I thought a heavier trigger pull weight might be an advantage on a defensive shotgun, and that a heavier carrier latch spring might prevent problems feeding.
The heavy sear spring isn't going to affect feeding, and it's a good thing to have in a HD gun. For clays it's not so great, but it's easy to change. I keep a heavy sear spring in the gun at home, and change it out for a lighter one when I go trap shooting.

On the other hand, replacing the 870's carrier dog follower spring with the heavier carrier latch spring from the Remington 1100 was probably a pointless modification for you. I still think your issues were caused because you had something put together wrong, but even so, you'll probably be better off putting the original carrier dog follower spring back in. It's not an issue of compatibility - the 20ga 870 uses the same carrier dog follower springs as the 12ga - it's simply that this is a largely over-recommended modification, usually made by people who don't understand what that spring does, and how switching to a heavier one will change things. They just hear that the heavier spring is used in Police 870s, and assume it must be better for everyone.

A heavier carrier dog follower spring will not make the carrier raise a shell any faster or stronger, because that's not what the spring does. This modification does not replace a "pump-action" part with a stronger "semi-auto" part; the carrier latch spring serves a different function in the 1100, the actual carrier dog follower spring is the same in both guns. It won't make the gun more dependable with heavy-recoiling shells; the spring isn't doing anything when the gun is being fired, and your average hunting load kicks harder than even a full-power LE 00 buck load anyway. All that spring does is hold other parts together so they will engage and raise the carrier, and hold the carrier down when the action is closed.

Police guns see very heavy use, and people's lives regularly depend on them being 100% reliable, even if the department armorer forgets to replace springs on schedule, or if the gun gets slammed around during a confrontation. Very few civilian 870s are used that heavily or treated that badly, and anyone who does put that many rounds through their gun either knows to replace springs and other wear parts at certain intervals, or to take it in and have a gunsmith do the same thing. The heavier spring will also make the action stiffer, and make the gun harder to load. These drawbacks aren't issues for a trained police officer in a gunfight, but it's an unwelcome change for most others.

Bottom line: an 870 is just as reliable with a normal-weight carrier dog follower spring in good condition as it is with an 1100 carrier latch spring, and it functions more smoothly and is easier to use with the former. If the heavier spring worked better, Remington would put it in every 870 right at the factory; it wouldn't cost them any extra to do so. I tried the extra-heavy spring in my gun, didn't like how it felt, and replaced it with a Marine Magnum one (same weight, but more corrosion-resistant).
Pastor Doogie
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by Pastor Doogie »

Thanks very much Dave C & Synchronizor for your thoughts and insights,

I've re-installed the factory carrier latch spring, and remained with the heavier sear spring for the heavier trigger for HD. :D

The gun is now feeding, ejecting, and cycling perfectly. I think the lubrication helped tremendously, and perhaps a few hundred more rounds will smooth out this gun's action bars a little more.

Fortunately there were no dimples in the magazine tube. :D

BTW I did check the manufacturing date for my 870 20 Gauge and I've learned that mine was made in 2005. I've noticed that the trigger assembly is very tight when I pull it down out of the bottom of the receiver--lots of polymer rubbing against the receiver. I just feel like this gun is within its first 500-1000 rounds.

I'm a big Massad Ayoob fan, and in one of his Youtube videos he encourages Civilians (Not LE) to consider a HD shotgun in 20 gauge for the reason that it's a nearly identical wound pattern to a 12 gauge within 25-50 yards, but with 55% of the 12 Gauge's recoil.

Maybe one day I'll move up to the Big Boy's 12 Gauge, but for now I'll stick with the 20 Gauge and work toward being accurate with what I've got.

I'm glad to be part of the 870 Family :D

Regards,

Pastor Doogie
“Multiple hits do count significantly.”
—Dr. Dennis Tobin M.D.
(Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall & Sanow Paladin Press, 1992 pg. 10.)
DaveC
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by DaveC »

I'm mighty glad the problems were resolved. I totally defer to Synchronizor's advice and mad skills on things Remington 870, that is for sure. I'm glad to learn many of the parts actually interchange.

20 gauge: My understanding is that you basically get something on the order of 3/4 of the pellet weight at the same velocity with about 55-60 percent of the recoil vis-a-vis the 12-gauge. I mostly just use 2-3/4-in. shells in the 12-gauge, but I do shoot a side-by-side double 'coach gun' in 20 gauge for Cowboy Action. The one issue with 12 gauge vs. 20 gauge is that there is a much greater variety and availability of the ammunition. The testing I've seen indicates that the No.3 buck from a 20-gauge and the 00 from a 12-gauge [and as Synchronizor has helpfully pointed out elsewhere, much of the "00" pellets are actually "0"] essentially penetrate the same distance in testing media.

Good luck and good shooting to you with your 870 20-gauge.
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Synchronizor
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by Synchronizor »

Pastor Doogie wrote:I've noticed that the trigger assembly is very tight when I pull it down out of the bottom of the receiver--lots of polymer rubbing against the receiver. I just feel like this gun is within its first 500-1000 rounds.
870s do have a break-in period before they'll function at their best, but regarding the trigger plate assembly, the tight feeling may also have something to do with how you're pulling it out. Usually, the TPA will come out more smoothly if you rotate it forward slightly while removing it, instead of just pulling it straight out.
Pastor Doogie wrote:I'm a big Massad Ayoob fan, and in one of his Youtube videos he encourages Civilians (Not LE) to consider a HD shotgun in 20 gauge for the reason that it's a nearly identical wound pattern to a 12 gauge within 25-50 yards, but with 55% of the 12 Gauge's recoil.

Maybe one day I'll move up to the Big Boy's 12 Gauge, but for now I'll stick with the 20 Gauge and work toward being accurate with what I've got.
Ayoob also wrote an article for Backwoods Home Magazine touting the 20ga. It's a good read, though I have to put on my shotgun nerd hat and knock him for getting the diameter of #4 buckshot wrong (also, I've spent the entire weekend working on an in-depth video about shotgun shot sizes, and it's started doing weird things to my brain).

The 20ga is an excellent chambering that really doesn't get as much recognition as it deserves. It's in a far better place than the largely-ignored 16ga, but I still wish it was better recognized as more than just a low-power alternative for small-game hunting. The only areas where the 12ga is significantly more effective than the 20ga is long-range bird hunting that calls for big payloads of large birdshot, and hunting or combat scenarios where the extra punch and penetration of large-size buckshot is needed. For fundamental geometric reasons, the 20ga can't handle buckshot bigger then #2B very well, and anything bigger than #1B just flat-out doesn't work. But home defense does not require the same tools used by police officers or military personnel (despite the imaginings of many armchair commandos). There's little call for HD buckshot to be effective at extreme ranges, or to have the power to punch through car bodies or windshields; in fact, excessive penetration and range are usually things to avoid in a HD weapon. At close ranges, against unarmored targets, #3B and #4B from a 20ga are devastating.
DaveC wrote:The one issue with 12 gauge vs. 20 gauge is that there is a much greater variety and availability of the ammunition. The testing I've seen indicates that the No.3 buck from a 20-gauge and the 00 from a 12-gauge [and as Synchronizor has helpfully pointed out elsewhere, much of the "00" pellets are actually "0"] essentially penetrate the same distance in testing media.
#3B isn't going to match the penetration of 00B if the two are loaded to anywhere near the same velocity. A (nominal) 00B pellet has well over twice the mass of a #3B pellet of the same material, and a much more favorable sectional density. However, that extra penetration is generally excessive for an unobstructed shot at an unarmored human. That situation favors the higher energy transfer and extra wound paths of a higher number of smaller buckshot. #1B is theoretically supposed to offer the deepest penetration in human-sized creatures with little-to-no "extra" left over, but (as mentioned briefly in the article I linked earlier), smaller buckshot sizes are capable of reaching the spinal cord of an adult human male from a close-range frontal hit, and critical organs like the heart and lungs are within easy reach.

These smaller buckshot sizes are where the 12ga and 20ga are surprisingly close-matched. Putting aside any preconceptions relating power to bore diameter, 27 pellets of #4B really isn't all that much deadlier than 24 pellets of #4B or 20 pellets of #3B at the same velocity.
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Re: Foolish Noobie Question(s)

Post by DaveC »

Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.
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