Vang Comp

[Pigiron]

Turned out better than expected. My Vang Comp Mossberg was more accurate than the stock 870 Police Magnum. Now, the Vang Comp 870 is more accurate. As to whether the Vang Comp process reduced felt recoil, well, recoil was never an issue.

As an aside, I purchased a blued 26" 870 Wingmaster barrel. It matcthes up perfectly.

Now, I can use the same gun for business and sporting clays.

[Synchronizor]

So what all did you have done? You mentioned back-boring with no porting, but was the forcing cone lengthened as well? And was the back-boring a parallel over-bore to a new bore diameter, or is it tapered?

Turned out better than expected. My Vang Comp Mossberg was more accurate than the stock 870 Police Magnum. Now, the Vang Comp 870 is more accurate.

What do you mean by more accurate? Are you getting tighter patterns than you did before it was modified? More consistent patterns? Or do the sights just correlate better to the point of impact now?

I know I've made no secret of my skepticism concerning the Vang Comp modifications. What fuels this is twofold. First, the only real quantitative claim made on their website is about reduced recoil. Even that's not worded real confidently, and could be due to nothing more than reduced muzzle velocity from an oversized bore. Everything else is just qualitative; increased rate of (?) accuracy, less pellet deformation, up to 90% less muzzle rise, etc. People use exactly this kind of wording all the time to make positive-sounding claims without actually committing to anything specific that a customer can hold them to. Usually, this means they're selling smoke.

Second, they don't show any real proof of their claims, qualitative or quantitative. The "official" DEA results on their pattern tests page are just 4 pictures of targets at 4 different ranges with one hit each from one of their barrels. No velocity readings, no pattern measurements or even size references, no control pattern, no information on the load, not even what shotgun it was from (though I think the DEA uses 870s). Just the range and helpful notes like "simply awesome!" or "Yes, this is incredible!" or "This is real stopping power!" The other "independent tests" give more info, but they provide very little information on their methodologies, and more importantly, they still don't provide any control data from an unmodified barrel. The endorsements likewise sound nice, but are anecdotal evidence at best.

Even poking around other gun forums produces mixed reviews, without very robust or detailed comparisons. The general consensus seems to be tighter patterns with some loads, but nothing that sounds different than what could be achieved for half the price simply by threading the barrel for choke tubes. Plus, with choke tubes, you're not stuck with one pattern for all roles.

I know I'm probably coming across as a little harsh, and I really don't mean to be. I've heard wonderful things about the quality and customer service of products and builds from Vang Comp, and I believe them. It's just that as a scientist, it's simply not in me to accept claims without seeing evidence, especially when those claims are coming from someone trying to sell something. I'm not outright opposed to the idea that changes to the bore geometry could produce more consistent or more symmetrical patterns with large shot sizes better than a standard bore with a properly-designed and -selected choke tube (though I do firmly believe that porting on a shotgun is utterly pointless). However, before I even consider paying hundreds of dollars to have my barrels modified or advising others to do so, I want to see proper, scientific testing to support their claims. This means large sample sizes with different ammunition, control patterns using the same loads from unmodified versions of the same guns, comparison of pattern quality between VC barrels and standard barrels choked to the same pattern size, legitimate methodologies & documentation for everything, and unbiased results with raw data made freely available.

Vang Comp has been in business for almost 25 years, it seems odd that in all that time, they still don't have any legitimate testing to validate their sales pitch.

[Pigiron]

So what all did you have done? You mentioned back-boring with no porting, but was the forcing cone lengthened as well? And was the back-boring a parallel over-bore to a new bore diameter, or is it tapered?

Turned out better than expected. My Vang Comp Mossberg was more accurate than the stock 870 Police Magnum. Now, the Vang Comp 870 is more accurate.

What do you mean by more accurate? Are you getting tighter patterns than you did before it was modified? More consistent patterns? Or do the sights just correlate better to the point of impact now?

I know I've made no secret of my skepticism concerning the Vang Comp modifications. What fuels this is twofold. First, the only real quantitative claim made on their website is about reduced recoil. Even that's not worded real confidently, and could be due to nothing more than reduced muzzle velocity from an oversized bore. Everything else is just qualitative; increased rate of (?) accuracy, less pellet deformation, up to 90% less muzzle rise, etc. People use exactly this kind of wording all the time to make positive-sounding claims without actually committing to anything specific that a customer can hold them to. Usually, this means they're selling smoke.

Second, they don't show any real proof of their claims, qualitative or quantitative. The "official" DEA results on their pattern tests page are just 4 pictures of targets at 4 different ranges with one hit each from one of their barrels. No velocity readings, no pattern measurements or even size references, no control pattern, no information on the load, not even what shotgun it was from (though I think the DEA uses 870s). Just the range and helpful notes like "simply awesome!" or "Yes, this is incredible!" or "This is real stopping power!" The other "independent tests" give more info, but they provide very little information on their methodologies, and more importantly, they still don't provide any control data from an unmodified barrel. The endorsements likewise sound nice, but are anecdotal evidence at best.

Even poking around other gun forums produces mixed reviews, without very robust or detailed comparisons. The general consensus seems to be tighter patterns with some loads, but nothing that sounds different than what could be achieved for half the price simply by threading the barrel for choke tubes. Plus, with choke tubes, you're not stuck with one pattern for all roles.

I know I'm probably coming across as a little harsh, and I really don't mean to be. I've heard wonderful things about the quality and customer service of products and builds from Vang Comp, and I believe them. It's just that as a scientist, it's simply not in me to accept claims without seeing evidence, especially when those claims are coming from someone trying to sell something. I'm not outright opposed to the idea that changes to the bore geometry could produce more consistent or more symmetrical patterns with large shot sizes better than a standard bore with a properly-designed and -selected choke tube (though I do firmly believe that porting on a shotgun is utterly pointless). However, before I even consider paying hundreds of dollars to have my barrels modified or advising others to do so, I want to see proper, scientific testing to support their claims. This means large sample sizes with different ammunition, control patterns using the same loads from unmodified versions of the same guns, comparison of pattern quality between VC barrels and standard barrels choked to the same pattern size, legitimate methodologies & documentation for everything, and unbiased results with raw data made freely available.

Vang Comp has been in business for almost 25 years, it seems odd that in all that time, they still don't have any legitimate testing to validate their sales pitch.

I can't address as to the what or why of the Vang Comp advertisment practices. (But being in business for 25 years doing basically only one thing says a lot, don't you think?) My initial exposure to the Vang Comp process was at a basic fighting shotgun course. The instructor and several other students had 870's* that had had the work done. Upon the strength of the course, I purchased the Vang Comp Mossberg 590 A1. (I had used a borrowed 870 for the course.)

For the second phase, I used the Mossberg. Granted, I was better prepared because of the initial training, but using the same Federal 00 Buck, the patterns were tighter at all distances. I realize that that is only anecdotal evidence, but it is all I can offer.

The second phase also involved the use of slugs, which because of the Mossberg ghost ring sights was easy. 50 and a 100** yards shots were dead on.

Because my only previous shotgun use was skeet and trap the "fighting shotgun" training was fun. Especially when we stood on top of the trap house with our "riot guns" and had at it. Once again, the patterns were tight and effective with #8 shot.

At the end of the day, I found the Mossberg to be perfectly fine, but, it wasn't a Remington 870. So I purchased a blued Police Magnum with a bead site. To me, walnut and blued steel is more attractive than parkerized and plastic.

Having two business shotguns made me want one load for both. So I went to work on finding one. It was an expensive process, more than expected. After it was all said and done, Dead Coyote 00 worked best for me. YMMV (The process was an 8" paper plate at 25, 12 and 8 yards.)

The Vang Comp Remington patterns better than the Sally Rand plain Jane Remington with the Dead Coyote @ 12 and 8 yards. Given today's tough ammo times, that's all I was willing to shoot.

My decision to have the full process done on the 870 barrel was, IMO, a good one. The 870 Police Magnum also IMO, is good shotgun without the Van Comp. But, once again, IMO, it is better with it.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

*There was a mix amongst the 870's. Some were the complete Vang Comp (which my son use's as a LEO) and others that just had the barrel done.

**It was dead on at 50 yards and I held two inches high at 100 yards.

[Synchronizor]

The Vang Comp Remington patterns better than the Sally Rand plain Jane Remington with the Dead Coyote @ 12 and 8 yards. Given today's tough ammo times, that's all I was willing to shoot.

My decision to have the full process done on the 870 barrel was, IMO, a good one. The 870 Police Magnum also IMO, is good shotgun without the Van Comp. But, once again, IMO, it is better with it.

I do believe all that. Again, everyone says Hans is a great guy, and I've heard really good things about the quality of Vang Comp's work overall. If you prefer your gun with that work done, that's great. I'm not denying that the Vang Comp system will tighten up patterns with some loads, that's been pretty well established.

I'm just not convinced that it works any better than a screw-in choke. Even if it does do the same thing as a choke, it's still more expensive, and you're stuck with that pattern permanently.

At the end of the day, I found the Mossberg to be perfectly fine, but, it wasn't a Remington 870. So I purchased a blued Police Magnum with a bead site. To me, walnut and blued steel is more attractive than parkerized and plastic.

Yeah, I love the beat-up old Police furniture on my gun, it just fits me perfectly. Nothing wring with the plastic, it works just fine and stands up to harsher environments really well, but it just doesn't have the same character.

[Pigiron]

A screw-in choke may be as effective as the Vang Comp process. However, since my Remington 18.5 inch barrel wasn't/isn't tapped for a screw-in choke, that point is moot.

To me, and once again this is only my opinion, the purpose of the "social" shotgun is specific. The Vang Comp process tightens up the buckshot pattern putting more lead on target, which is all I want.

Does the Vang Comp process increase the "effective" range of my "social" shotguns? Yes it does.

As an aside, my indoor shotgun is a side by side Remington with 20" barrels. A "Lupara" if you will. It is equipped with 2 Carlson's screw-in "Extra Full" chokes. Interestingly, the Lupara is shorter overall than the 870.

[Synchronizor]

A screw-in choke may be as effective as the Vang Comp process. However, since my Remington 18.5 inch barrel wasn't/isn't tapped for a screw-in choke, that point is moot.

Even if your barrel isn't threaded for choke tubes, you can get that done for $75 - $100 for just the threading, and many gunsmiths offer a threading job plus 3 chokes for around $125 - $150. The Vang Comp work is $200 - $255, depending on what all you have done.

[Pigiron]

I got the "process" on sale, and once again, what's done is done. Clearly, you have a bias, and that's cool.

However, if I was going to get a "social" shotgun with a screw-in choke, it would be the Model 93/97 from Coyote Cap Gunworks. Joe Bob says, "check it out!" http://www.coyotecap.com/mod__93-97_wcse.html

[Pigiron]

What I don't understand is why you are trying to disuade folks from a commercial product that you have no personal experience with other than what you've read about on the Internet?

[Synchronizor]

What I don't understand is why you are trying to disuade folks from a commercial product that you have no personal experience with other than what you've read about on the Internet?

Well, first off, I want to make it clear that a person is free to do whatever they want with their money and their shotgun, so long as it's legal, and doesn't present a danger to themselves or others.

But to summarize what I've already stated; while a Vang Comp barrel does seem to tighten patterns, it does so in a way that is less consistent, less precise, less versatile, and more expensive than the tried-and-true choke tube. So until someone can offer more rigorous proof than the anecdotes on Vang Comp's website for how their system's performance is worth the extra cost and reduced flexibility; my recommendation to those who are interested in hearing it will continue to favor the screw-in chokes that have been rigorously tested, and remain the overwhelmingly popular choice for everyone from law enforcement to Olympic athletes.

[Mifune326]

I took advantage of the Christmas special and had Hans do two of my barrels. I can definitely support the tighter pattern results with both birdshot and buckshot. There does also seem to be a slight difference in felt recoil before and after the work.

I had them port my barrels. Muzzle rise does seem to be somewhat dimished but not dramatic. Others who run the ported Van Comp barrels also report reduced muzzle flash at night but I had not had the chance to confirm this with a night shoot yet. Among my buddies who have had the porting done, reduced muzzle flash is the biggest benefit as it pertains to this modification.

At any rate, the tighter patterns are awesome. For me, Hans' work was definitely worth the money. And on top of that, the folks are Vang comp are all very personable and a pleasure to deal with. They're customer service and attitude are hard to find these days. And don't be surprised if Mr. Vang personally picks up the phone to help you. I was surprised to find that even as the head of the company, he is always happy to answer any questions and frequently assists in answering the phone.