870 BULLPUP conversion?

[DaveC]

Chris Cheng likes 870 Bullpup conversion unit:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013 ... rsion-kit/

My quest for a used 870 knockabout for shade tree gun tinkery just got a little more urgent....

[DaveC]

OK, so humor me here:

I have been reading online that some folks have been installing some kind of H&R Chinese-made copy of the Remington 870 shotgun into the Bullpup kit and the resultant bullpup shotgun works...

I *think* I could get a Remington Express Synthetic 18" for an ideal build shotgun for as close to three Franklin notes as possible, or the Bullpup kit for fairly close to three Franklin notes... But not both! [*sniffle!*]

Does anyone think I could use my Smith and Wesson/Howa Japanese 300 knock-off as the base build gun in an 870-only kit? I'm sure that parts are NOT interchangeable, but would the polymer plastic clamshell essentially fit along with the trigger bar? Hmmm.... decisions, decisions.

[Synchronizor]

Does anyone think I could use my Smith and Wesson/Howa Japanese 300 knock-off as the base build gun in an 870-only kit? I'm sure that parts are NOT interchangeable, but would the polymer plastic clamshell essentially fit along with the trigger bar? Hmmm.... decisions, decisions.

I'd suggest going through the kit's instructions and assembly, and identifying the critical points where the bullpup chassis attaches to and interacts with the base gun. Then, compare your 870 and your 3000 to see if there will be any conflicts. I'd especially look at the locations and dimensions of the controls on the trigger plate assembly.

Personally, I'll stick with standard 870s. I can't imagine very many situations where it's absolutely critical to have a shotgun that's a handful of inches shorter apart from meeting space limitations for storage or transport (and a folding stock fits that need just fine). A pump shotgun is a 2-handed long gun, no matter how you package it.

And overall length isn't everything, what the bullpup chassis sheds in length, it more than makes up for in bulk; the chassis is roughly twice as wide as a base 870, and a lot chunkier all around. Plus, it adds a lot more things to go wrong, and makes for a far less ergonomic package. If you short-shuck the gun, forget to chamber a shell, need to change ammo or reload, or have something jam, the bullpup arrangement is going to slow you down a lot. I'm also still not convinced that the plastic construction will hold up to repeated disassembly and cleaning over the long run (though I'm not going to go around claiming that they did it wrong by using plastic; obviously a metal version of this would weigh so much it would be useless).

To me, this looks like a great range toy, something fun to do with a second shotgun for the heck of it. I can definitely see myself blowing an afternoon and several cases of shells with this and some buddies out in the woods, but I'd never use it or recommend it for combat or HD.

[DaveC]

Thanks for the insights and critique, Synchronizor.

I did watch everything out there on it, including the assembly instructions [BTO, Takin' Care of Business! Woo-hoo! ]

My 870 is right where I want it: 18.5" Mossberg cylinder bore barrel, EOTech ILForend, S&J "Delrin" tube magazine follower, 4-shot side-saddle ammo carrier, Choate youth size pistol-grip stock.

For that matter, I quite like the retro wood riot gun stock furniture and parkerized finish with donut and coffee stains on my ex-Pontiac, MI S&W 3000!

Shedding ten inches in length would be nice, albeit at 30 dollars per inch, that is hefty. One of the product videos shows a very short-statured young lady in Kentucky shooting it, and I do have questions about what the length-of-pull would be on the bullpup unit. Basically, what if I shed ten inches in overall length, but end up with a length-of-pull that is too long? Getting a 14-in. "entry length" barrel for an 870 would be $200 USD tax to the ATFE for the NFA, a really long wait, and it might even be impossible, even here in Texas--land of open carry rallies at the Alamo and whatnot. 200 bucks for four and a half inches!

Certainly, as with any new product that comes out, it is often better to wait and see what kind of issues arise... Don't be in a rush to be one of the first tester Resus monkeys, if you will.

Still: Magpul BUIS aperture sights installed, an old Pachmayr AR grip in lieu of the A2 grip, an 8-shot S&J ammo carrier epoxied to the right side of the polymer chassis, some kind of new-fangled red dot or holosight, and a TLR-1 weaponlight installed on one of the rails.... Hmm.

[Synchronizor]

It would certainly be a fun toy, no doubt about that. But even assuming it never malfunctions and lasts as long as the 870 itself (forever, basically), I just don't think it's an improvement over a traditional 870 as a defensive gun for civilians, and I'll explain why (and understand I'm talking in general terms, here).

The entire focus of the bullpup chassis is about reducing overall length, and to do so, it sacrifices simplicity, customize-ability, adjustability, ergonomics, weight, width, malfunction-clearing speed, and so on. I've expressed here and elsewhere that I believe people worry too much about - and sacrifice more than they should for - a short overall length. It's really not a critical attribute for people who aren't soldiers, law enforcement officers, professional bodyguards, Expendables, etc (and even there, super-short shotguns are only used in a few specialized situations). A normal 18-20" barreled gun with a shoulder stock will work just as well as anything 8 or 10 inches shorter for situations where a shotgun is an appropriate choice to begin with.

If people want something that's lighter, easier to use, and better balanced for one-handed operation or small-framed users than a 12ga pump, there's the lighter and lighter-kicking 20ga, the dead-simple and lighter-kicking semi-automatic, and best of all, the simple, lightweight, and soft-shooting 20ga semi-auto. People who want a weapon that's more maneuverable in tight spaces or a vehicle (and I'll spare y'all my "car gun" rant unless someone really wants to hear it) would be far better off using the cost (money and time-equivalent money) of an NFA barrel, pistol-grip-only build, or bullpup kit on a serviceable handgun instead. You think 28 inches sounds nice? How about eight inches? And the one-handed control-ability is amazing! A usable shotgun complimented by a functional handgun is a far better defensive toolset than a novelty shotgun that's less effective all-around.

The only real advantage of the overall length of a pistol-grip/bullpup/NFA shotgun for civilians that I can imagine is that they're easier to store, more convenient to carry or pack around, and often easier and faster to deploy from someplace like a closet or under the bed. However, as I mentioned earlier, a folding stock will provide those same storage/transportation advantages, and you'll still have a proper buttstock when it comes time to shoot things.

Again, nothing against Bullpup Unlimited's product, it seems to be well-designed and well-built. As I understand it, the kits currently being sold are a second-generation design with some construction and materials tweaks, so that's encouraging to hear. It looks like a very fun and cool thing for building a recreational or special-use gun. However, for some pretty fundamental reasons, I can't see how a bullpup 870 would be a better defensive gun than a standard 870; and I think the people who are calling the bullpup kit the HD equivalent of sliced bread are either functioning on a bad set of priorities, or they're just excited by the novelty of it (or they have financial motivations).

[Odyknuck]

I have been looking into this myself. Unfortunatly I have an 870 20 gauge. I would have to modify the rear adapter block and install a sleeve on the Ammo tube due to diameter difference. The tube would be easy, the adapter block should really needs to be made from scratch to feel safe with it. I read were one guy did it however he had to modify the block and remove a lot of material off of it and could not use all of the screws. I still may attempt it as the gun was free and in mint condition for being made in 1991. Not sure if todays quality would equal the gun I have. Too bad they don't make one for an 1100 or an 11-87 I would be in like flint. Well no flint lol.

[Synchronizor]

Too bad they don't make one for an 1100 or an 11-87 I would be in like flint. Well no flint lol.

The semi-auto shotguns have a buffer tube that sits in the stock. I don't think you could get a bullpup kit or pistol grip to work on those guns without modifying the core action.

[DaveC]

The original "olde school" bullpup shotgun was a semi-auto: The High Standard police gun. Way ahead of its time. I still think a dedicated defense/ "tactical" version in 20-gauge would sell like the proverbial hotcakes. Too bad I don't have the "start up" capital to open a factory!

[USMC_5711]

I have one and love it.


Sent from my Apple Newton in 1993 with 640k of RAM

[Odyknuck]

The Bullpup conversion or the semi? Care to share more thoughts on it?