How do you mount your 870?

[Synchronizor]

So now I'm STUPID?

Decidedly not, going off what you've shared here on the forum. You've shown a lot of intelligence in equipping your wife with the tools and skills to defend the family if necessary. You've also shown wisdom in selecting an easy-to-handle 20ga for her that you've kept simple and functional, recognizing that training is far more valuable than tacti-cool accessories. Your post two up from this one outlines an exemplary home defense strategy focused on protecting your lives above any material concerns or masculine pride, and without any overblown imaginings of running, Hollywood-style gunfights or advanced commando tactics that are all too common among internet tacticians. Involving the whole family in establishing and practicing your emergency response plan shows a lot of foresight as well.

That said, I still consider it a bad idea to attempt to scare off an intruder or intruders by racking a shotgun for two primary reasons:

1) By racking the shotgun specifically for them to hear it, you alert your opponent to your presence, armed status, and possibly your location as well. If it's just some punk looking for prescriptions and jewelry, there's a very good chance that they'll decide they should be elsewhere. If it's some drugged-up psycho, a larger group of intruders, or even just one intruder with a gun and a tendency to panic, the situation could move in a much more dangerous direction. The key here is that by giving them the information that a gun-rack warning conveys, you leave it up to them to decide whether to flee, or escalate things.

2) Any gun with an empty chamber is impotent until the chamber has been loaded. By waiting to chamber a round until you can make a warning out of it, you're leaving yourself vulnerable. Depending on the situation, a warning may well be appropriate, but don't hinder your defensive capabilities in order to do so. Arm yourselves (with rounds ready to go in the chambers), gather your family in a defensible location, and notify the police. Then, from behind what cover is available, with guns trained on the bedroom door and the police on their way, you can offer a warning or threat and remain well-established to deal with the possibility of the intruder or intruders taking that warning the wrong way.

Again, based on what you've shared since joining our community here, I have a lot of respect for you. Please take this as me trying to help, not insult.

Red Team, Blue Team

You don't happen to be a machinima fan, do you?

[hunterbob]

I also had a secondary AFSC (Armed Forces Skill Code - similar to the Army's MOS)...

AFSC = Air Force Specialty Code

[Kentactic]

I'm also firmly in the "empty chamber" camp. I always recommend keeping a HD shotgun with a full magazine, but an empty chamber. People can pick whether they prefer the action locked or unlocked, and the safety on or off; the better choices will depend on individual preferences and situations (though as someone who's developed a lot of muscle memory handling my 870, I automatically press the slide release whenever I pick up my gun and open the action, even if it's already unlocked).

You're correct, Kentactic, that 870s aren't fully drop-safe, but it would take a very violent acceleration in just the right direction to cause an inertial strike. A much more pressing danger is a simple accidental trigger pull. Observing proper trigger discipline is simple enough at the range; but things get a little more sloppy when you're disorientated from just having been jolted awake while at the same time charged with adrenaline and clumsy due to whatever threat woke you, and you're groping blindly for your bedside gun since your eyes haven't adjusted to the darkness yet. Having a live round under the firing pin in that situation is not wise.

A shotgun with a full magazine isn't unloaded, it just takes a fraction of a second to chamber a shell and be ready to fire. Wake up, get your bearings, then if there's reason to, pick up the gun and chamber a round right away (quietly, if necessary - it can be done) before taking whatever action. Trying to scare an intruder (or intruders, as is often the case) off by racking the gun loudly nearby is a stupid gamble. It essentially tells them that you're armed, and leaves it up to them to decide how to act on that information.

If you're going into a situation where you may need to fire the shotgun, load the chamber right off the bat. If there's no immediate need to fire the shotgun, keep the chamber empty.

Agreed an accidental discharge by dropping the shotgun is not very likely. Id wager you could try all day at the range slamming it with little luck.

As far as waking up and accidently discharging the gun dosent seem as bad as trying to first work the action and THEN not discharge the gun by accident. Just more things to do in your half awake state.

To say that it takes a fraction of a second to work the action and chamber a round is accurate. BUT Keeping it empty until its time to fire could be lethal. Fractions of seconds are a lot in a gunfight when your 10 ft apart. Not to mention your more likely to short stroke etc if your under the stress of, if you dont do get the gun shooting in the next 1 second you may die VS 10 days earlier racking it after dinner as you insepct the gun and set it back up for action at a later time. Like i said, taking an unloaded gun to a gunfight is not the best idea. If the gun cant go bang when you pull the trigger theres a malfunction in either the user or the weapon. Its best to fix that before its time to start shooting.

Heres another way to look at it. Lets say you leave the gun unchambered, you see the the bad guy, hes got a knife, you rack it and fire but miss. He darts off into another room. Are you going to yet again leave it empty and rack it when/if you need to fire again? If anything your much more likely to have an AD now that your in an active gunfight. Yet again your not immediatly faced with the threat and need to fire. Im quite certain youll immediatly rack it after the first shot (with the recoil of the shot if youve been training). My question is whats the difference between the pre first shot and pre second shot? Why chamber a round ahead of time for one but not the other? The threat for a need to immediatly shoot anytime is equal.

[Zebra62]

Thanks for the reminder, Hunterbob. It's been better than twenty some odd years since I have even thought about using those letters all in a row and I had trouble with the words associated with the acronym when I was in. I guess that what I get for getting old.

[Zebra62]

I do not use the sound of chambering a round just to try to scare off an intruder. The sound is a byproduct of chambering. True, it will let the intruder know where I am, BUT, since I have been woken up, I know where he is also. I am a very light sleeper and when my eyes open, there is no fog to try to wade through. My tactical sleeps next to the bed ready for a round to be chambered. The magazine is full of 00 and I have an ammo bag handy, ready to sling over a shoulder, full of more 00 should my first 6 rounds not convince the invader to leave or die. Then there are the 10 rounds in Gypsy's 20 gauge, 15 rounds in the .380, 10 rounds in the .303, and the the 5 final rounds in my Mossberg. Thats BEFORE reloading anything. We do not foresee getting into a heated firefight requiring us to unload all of our weapons. Should something that outrageous occur, I will be firing, Gypsy will be reloading, our daughter will be getting the window open and screen out so we can exit the house and make for the hills, so to speak.

If the sound does not convince an intruder to leave and he makes the wrong decision to test our resolve, we are prepared to wage open war protecting our children. Let him have the house. Its all replacable. Our kids are not.

[Synchronizor]

As far as waking up and accidently discharging the gun dosent seem as bad as trying to first work the action and THEN not discharge the gun by accident. Just more things to do in your half awake state.

But once you have the gun in your hands, in a normal hold, muscle memory takes over and the gun is safer to manipulate. When you're groping for the gun in the dark, things get a lot more iffy.

To say that it takes a fraction of a second to work the action and chamber a round is accurate. BUT Keeping it empty until its time to fire could be lethal. Fractions of seconds are a lot in a gunfight when your 10 ft apart. Not to mention your more likely to short stroke etc if your under the stress of, if you dont do get the gun shooting in the next 1 second you may die VS 10 days earlier racking it after dinner as you insepct the gun and set it back up for action at a later time. Like i said, taking an unloaded gun to a gunfight is not the best idea. If the gun cant go bang when you pull the trigger theres a malfunction in either the user or the weapon. Its best to fix that before its time to start shooting.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about keeping the chamber empty until you're right about to take a shot, I'm only talking about keeping it empty until you pick the thing up. If I'm going into a situation where I may need the gun, it'll be ready to shoot; I just don't store it in that condition. If you need to react to an armed opponent 10 feet away and there's no weapon in your hands, it won't matter how you store your shotgun, it'll always be too slow.

I do keep my Glock 31 loaded, with a round in the chamber, on a bedside table, because that has more safety features than my shotgun, and I can position it so that I can simply pick it up with my thumb and three fingers and have it in a shooting hold quickly and safely. Bringing my shotgun into action, on the other hand, would require me to twist around, grab it from where it's leaning against the wall, then get it into a shooting grip and pointed at the threat. There's a lot more handling involved there, more time, and more chances for an accidental trigger pull. The shotgun would be my preferred weapon to repel boarders, but if I need to react fast, the handgun is a far better choice. Therefore, I keep the shotgun's chamber unloaded; giving up a few theoretical fractions of a second that won't make a difference anyway in order to follow proper firearm safety practices.

[Zebra62]

But once you have the gun in your hands, in a normal hold, muscle memory takes over and the gun is safer to manipulate. When you're groping for the gun in the dark, things get a lot more iffy.

Even with all of our differences of opinion in the recent past, I agree with Synchronizer on this issue. Your muscle memory will keep your finger off the trigger until you need to put your finger ON the trigger. Your muscle memory comes with training, handling your weapon every day like your life depends on it. In a SHTF situation, the cream will not rise to the top. Your brain will default to your training.

Survive to Operate. Operate to Survive.

I do keep my Glock 31 loaded, with a round in the chamber, on a bedside table, because that has more safety features than my shotgun, and I can position it so that I can simply pick it up with my thumb and three fingers and have it in a shooting hold quickly and safely.

I wish I could keep my .380 on the nightstand ready for action, and there was a time when I did. Then I had children. Even though I have it in a safe under the edge of the bed with an electronic touch pad to open, I am still quicker getting my shotgun up and ready. I have always been better with a long gun anyway. My ex was the better shot with the piostol.

[Kentactic]

As far as waking up and accidently discharging the gun dosent seem as bad as trying to first work the action and THEN not discharge the gun by accident. Just more things to do in your half awake state.

But once you have the gun in your hands, in a normal hold, muscle memory takes over and the gun is safer to manipulate. When you're groping for the gun in the dark, things get a lot more iffy.

To say that it takes a fraction of a second to work the action and chamber a round is accurate. BUT Keeping it empty until its time to fire could be lethal. Fractions of seconds are a lot in a gunfight when your 10 ft apart. Not to mention your more likely to short stroke etc if your under the stress of, if you dont do get the gun shooting in the next 1 second you may die VS 10 days earlier racking it after dinner as you insepct the gun and set it back up for action at a later time. Like i said, taking an unloaded gun to a gunfight is not the best idea. If the gun cant go bang when you pull the trigger theres a malfunction in either the user or the weapon. Its best to fix that before its time to start shooting.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about keeping the chamber empty until you're right about to take a shot, I'm only talking about keeping it empty until you pick the thing up. If I'm going into a situation where I may need the gun, it'll be ready to shoot; I just don't store it in that condition. If you need to react to an armed opponent 10 feet away and there's no weapon in your hands, it won't matter how you store your shotgun, it'll always be too slow.

I do keep my Glock 31 loaded, with a round in the chamber, on a bedside table, because that has more safety features than my shotgun, and I can position it so that I can simply pick it up with my thumb and three fingers and have it in a shooting hold quickly and safely. Bringing my shotgun into action, on the other hand, would require me to twist around, grab it from where it's leaning against the wall, then get it into a shooting grip and pointed at the threat. There's a lot more handling involved there, more time, and more chances for an accidental trigger pull. The shotgun would be my preferred weapon to repel boarders, but if I need to react fast, the handgun is a far better choice. Therefore, I keep the shotgun's chamber unloaded; giving up a few theoretical fractions of a second that won't make a difference anyway in order to follow proper firearm safety practices.

Ok thanks for explaining the part about when you chamber a round.

As far as muscle memory why is it a nonexistant benefit when you grab a shotgun with a chambered round? Theres 5 miles of "safe" realestate to grab in order to get your hands properly positioned.

Also let me clear up for future readers that it breaks no firearms safety rules to keep a shotgun with a round chambered. Its as safe as the user holding it is. And that goes for any gun in any condition. If one must try to guard against his possible errors in the future by setting the weapon up a certain way then it may be time to evaluate wether or not a guns the best choice for said user.

If you think you might take the safety off and pull the trigger while grabbing a shotgun after awakening then were on two different pages of two different books.

[Automag]

That was an interesting exchange, and a very important topic. I am of the opinion that you should have a round chambered and 6 (7) in the magazine. I'm not putting zebra down at all, it's up to the weapon operater which they prefer. I prefer to let my intruder know (when i choose to) where i am by the use of a very bright Taclight w/finger on the trigger. That way, the intruder(s) know they've been detected and hopefully will freak out and leave. I would at this point let them know there's a 12 gauge aimed right at them, by warning them (in a control and power position) to get the hell out, or i'll open fire, all the while having my finger on the trigger and safety engaged. I can switch to fire in a microsecond, and i'm always in control. If it turns into a gunfight, then i'm going to survive and have police paper work to fill out.
BTW when i served in the USAF, all we did was train on weapons, every weapon in the USAF arsenal. I was Security Police, which has 2 Mos's: there is the LEO mos, where they drive the police cars and enforce laws like a civilian Police Officer. The other is more like a combination of Infantry and SWAT. In the Security Police world, we always used the term MOS (Military Operating Specialty). I don't know when that might have changed, I served from 9/83 to 10/89. I almost changed my MOS to Para Rescue (Combat Rescue), but my wife did'nt approve.
Anyway, i do believe that you should'nt bring an unloaded gun to a gunfight, as they say. The main issue here is operating the safety and trigger discipline, not copying the hollywood shotgun racking sound (ever notice sometimes they rack their shotgun twice in one scene w/o ever firing). Go Hollywood!!!!

[reeps]

Here is a little update of my build.

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