Express vs Wingmaster noticeable differences?

[tom]

I'll be purchasing a 870 mainly for hunting and some clay shooting. I've narrowed it down to two models: 12 gauge 870 Express (magnum) and the Wingmaster, with a 28" barrel.

Here in Finland, the Wingmaster is roughly 2x as expensive as the Express (when bought new): is it really worth the extra cost? And when I say I expensive, we are talking ballpark 1300$ for wingmaster, 650$ for Express... Used Express go around 350-450$.

The major difference with the two, from what I've gathered so far is: Wingmaster will have more smoother action (with hq extractor, aluminum trigger group), nicer finish and glossy stock. The barrel would be "light contour" making it (perhaps) more balanced and come with 3 chokes vs 1 with the express.

I'm more of function over form, but I do want it to be reliable and smooth functioning. In your opinion, would it really make any noticeable difference? I would be really interested in hearing comments from people who own both a recent Wingmaster and Express: Is there noticeable difference in handling, functionality of the guns?

Note: I posted this earlier in the new members introduction, but figured this is more appropriate place for it

[Synchronizor]

If you're primarily after functionality, I'd say go with the Express. They're both 870s, the Wingmaster is just more dressed-up, and runs smoother out of the box. Once you get an Express broken in though, it functions very smoothly. The actions on new Wingmasters that I've handled in gun stores feel tight compared to my well-used Express.

If there's something specific about the Express that you don't like, you can always upgrade it, all parts are interchangeable; but in terms of just throwing shot where you want it, an Express will do that just as well as a Wingmaster.

[mercman]

I own both. I've had Wingmasters since the late 70's and have thousands of rounds down the tube on them. A few years ago I picked up an Express HD Magnum and so far have about 8-900 rounds through it. It is smootning out and I've had zero malfunctions with it. Since its a home defensive shotgun I upgraded the safety with a large button style and added a steel mag tube follower. I picked up a couple of forged extractors but haven't swapped one in yet. So far the MIM part has worked fine.

The biggest difference that I see is the finish with the Express being a paint on coating. This is a little thin in spots but so far no rust.

For the difference in cost that you're seeing I would probably go with and Express, maybe two.

[tom]

Thanks for your comments on the matter, really appreciate it.

My worry with the Express has been mostly about seeing a lot of people comment on the jamming issues with certain types of loads, but you guys have not never experienced any of this? This is in about some people saying the chamber requiring some polishing work to make it work without issues.

About extension magazine tubes and Express/Wingmaster: If I've understood correctly - all new Express models have the dimples, but I've also seen a comment where someone said all new Wingmaster models come with same dimples + same follower, is this true?

[reeps]

my 2012 express had dimples. I filed them down and reblued the area where I scraped it on the inside. Took about an hour to do both, and maybe $20 worth of supplies.

[Synchronizor]

The biggest difference that I see is the finish with the Express being a paint on coating.

The standard Express finish isn't a paint, it's a matte bluing. Same chemistry as the Wingmaster bluing, but a different process. It's not as durable as the Wingmaster bluing, but it works, and there are a myriad of options for refinishing the gun if you decide to upgrade. My 870 has the Express finish, and while it's worn off in some places, the only time I ever had a little rusting was after I got the thing completely soaked carrying it through hip-deep mountain snow, then let it sit for many hours after I got home before taking it down and caring for it properly. I won't blame the gun for that one.

Here's my 870 Express with a Parkerized +3 extension and my 20" Wingmaster barrel.

870 finishes.PNG (2.37 MiB) Viewed 6475 times

My worry with the Express has been mostly about seeing a lot of people comment on the jamming issues with certain types of loads, but you guys have not never experienced any of this? This is in about some people saying the chamber requiring some polishing work to make it work without issues.

Many of those stories involve Winchester Universal shells; a specific type of cheap, bulk ammunition sold here in the U.S. that is poorly-manufactured, and has a well-deserved reputation for jamming all different kinds of shotguns. Sometimes other brands of cheap ammo will over-expand and stick in the 870's chamber, but nearly not as often, especially once you have the gun broken in. Personally, I only experienced a large number of jams once; when I was shooting with some friends, and one of them brought a bunch of the aforementioned Winchester Universals. Unsurprisingly, those shells caused every shotgun there to jam, not just the 870s. Other than that, I've had a couple cheap shells from other manufacturers hang up, but mostly with new barrels. With broken-in barrels, such jams are extremely rare with very low-end ammo (easily attributable to the ammo, not the gun), and nonexistent with anything higher-quality.

Cleaning and polishing the chamber is a good idea with any new 870, Wingmaster or Express. Doing so will remove any dirt from storage or left-over oil or grease from the factory, which can increase the chances of hang-ups in a gun that hasn't been broken in. I do that to all my barrels, new or used.

About extension magazine tubes and Express/Wingmaster: If I've understood correctly - all new Express models have the dimples, but I've also seen a comment where someone said all new Wingmaster models come with same dimples + same follower, is this true?

I'm not sure about the new Wingmasters (though I kind of doubt it), but most newer Express-level 870s that don't have factory-installed magazine extensions use a new-style plastic spring retainer that locks into dimples in the magazine tube. The plastic spring retainer is actually a lot easier to use than the old metal press-in retainers, and for most hunting and clay-shooting, an extended magazine is not very useful anyway.

If you do want to have the option to install a magazine extension, those bumps can be removed. It's not that complicated a process, but not everyone may be comfortable grinding or drilling on their shotgun. Also, since the plastic spring retainers are used to keep the magazine cap from backing off, you might have issues with magazine caps or unclamped extensions loosening up during extended shooting once the dimples are removed. This is worth mentioning, but it's not really that big of an issue. I have an Express barrel I use for trap shooting. I just make sure the cap is good and tight, and it stays put just fine without a cap retention system. If you do have problems, you can always use a wave-style lockwasher under the cap, or have a locking detent installed in the barrel guide ring,

[tom]

Thanks Synchronizor for the good info. The picture and explanation of the different surface treatments was enlightening. I'm beginning to think Express might be just as viable as the Wingmaster for my needs.

I had also ruled out the Super Magnum model thinking I would not really need to shoot 3 1/2 and after noticing that some stocks, parts seem to be not compatible with that model. Also, I remember reading that Super Magnum would have longer movement in the forend (making the load action different). What's your take on this? Would I be better of getting the Super Magnum anyways, in case I ever had the need to shoot those shells. The price difference is negligible between magnum and super magnum express models.

Fun fact - back here the shells sizes are called 12/70, 12/76 (magnum) and 12/89 (super magnum), with the latter number referring to the length of the shell in millimeters: 76mm = 3" ..

[Synchronizor]

I had also ruled out the Super Magnum model thinking I would not really need to shoot 3 1/2 and after noticing that some stocks, parts seem to be not compatible with that model. Also, I remember reading that Super Magnum would have longer movement in the forend (making the load action different). What's your take on this? Would I be better of getting the Super Magnum anyways, in case I ever had the need to shoot those shells. The price difference is negligible between magnum and super magnum express models.

To be honest, I don't like the 3.5" 12ga shells at all. They were introduced back in the days when lead shot became illegal for waterfowl hunting, and steel - which is is a horrible shot material - was the only alternative. The harder steel pellets do not pattern well and are tough on the gun; and since steel is so much less dense than lead, the lighter-weight pellets shed velocity faster and penetrate less. In a hopeless attempt to make up for this, ammo manufacturers and hunters started using larger shot sizes for steel, and tried to shoot as much of it as possible at a time, leading to a resurgence of the old 3.5" 10ga magnum shell, which offered more capacity than the 12ga. In order to compete, the 3.5" 12ga shell was developed, with more capacity and a slightly higher pressure limit to give the light steel shot as much velocity as possible. However, the 3.5" 12ga shell was overly long for its diameter, and the long, narrow shot columns patterned very poorly (and steel shot patterned like crap to begin with). The maxed-out velocity didn't help either.

For the 870 SuperMag specifically, that gun was never designed for a shell that long. The conversion weakened the receiver due to the enlarged ejection port; and since there was no room for a longer bolt to cover up the longer port when the action was closed, a funky, spring-loaded port cover was tacked on. One of the 870's strengths is the simplicity and reliability of its action; more moving parts is just a step away from that. I've also heard plenty of stories of unreliable ejection with the longest shells. The fore-end travel is pretty much the same, but with modifications to the action, trigger group, and fore-end; much of the excellent parts interchangeability that standard 870s benefit so much from is lost, and your options for upgrades and customization are reduced as well.

Today, there are plenty of nontoxic shot materials that are closer to (or even greater than) the density of lead. There's no good reason to have a 12ga SuperMag gun anymore, in my opinion. A 3" shell with a high-density shot will outperform a 3.5" steel shot load, and the extra-long 3.5" chamber will have a negative effect on patterning when shooting 3" or 2.75" shells (in fact, serious competition guns are often only chambered for 2.75" shells). If you want a 3.5" gun for some reason, and plan on actually using 3.5" shells more frequently than shorter ones, get one that was actually designed for that long shell. If you want an 870, keep it simple and get a Magnum model. 3" shells are plenty for any role, especially if you're shooting properly, and selecting & pattern-testing your loads like you should be. People who insist on needing the SuperMags are the same kind of people who think they need a punishing ultra-mag rifle for mid-range deer hunting to improve their odds, while people who know what they're doing have been killing deer just fine with .30-06 and .30-30 rifles for years.

Fun fact - back here the shells sizes are called 12/70, 12/76 (magnum) and 12/89 (super magnum), with the latter number referring to the length of the shell in millimeters: 76mm = 3" ..

They're usually labeled in both inches and millimeters here. Virtually no one around here refers to them by the latter designation, but knowing both systems has come in handy in the past.

[Bastard File]

Over the years the finish color on the Express model has changed a few times...some were a greenish color and others a matte blue/black color. The Express has a thinner applied finish than does a Wingmaster, but with proper care it is not that big of an issue. I have blue worn several Express's over the years and when refinishing was necessary I had them parkerized. I live in South Louisiana and the climate can prove hard on metal finishes if not kept properly oiled, hence the reason I keep a Marine Magnum in my truck. I currently have two Express's at my gunsmith's being cut down and parkerized. One is a factory Express Magnum stamped receiver with black synthetic furniture. It's being cut to 20" and rethreaded for choke tubes. Scattergun Technologies sights & a plus 2 extension installed. The other is an Express as well, but being cut to 18-1/2" with a plus 1 extension installed. The wood will be painted OD green with Dura Coat. I also have an 18-1/2" plain cylinder bore barrel (just the barrel) having factory rifle sights installed on and threaded for choke tubes for another project I'm currently working on. I LOVE 870's!!! My gunsmith removes the magazine tube dimples with heat and a mandrel he made himself....works slick....no grinding or drilling.

[Synchronizor]

My gunsmith removes the magazine tube dimples with heat and a mandrel he made himself....works slick....no grinding or drilling.

There are similar tools marketed to 870 owners for pounding out the dimples at home, but I have a rather low opinion of the DIY version of that tool & method. Whenever I see it demonstrated, it's done cold, with the gun held in such a way that all the impact goes right to the brazed joint between the magazine tube and the receiver. It's enough to set my teeth on edge...