Required listening on HD shotguns

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
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Synchronizor
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Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by Synchronizor » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:38 am

Last week, I came across an excellent two-part episode of the ProArms podcast, in which such esteemed individuals as Jon Strayer, Terri Strayer, Massad Ayoob, Herman Gunter, Gail Pepin, Steve Denney, and Chris Christian discuss almost all aspects of a home-defense shotgun. These people know exactly what they're talking about, and unlike most opinions on the internet, they have the credentials and first-hand experience to back up what they say. I would go so far as to describe this as "required listening", as it will answer at least 90% of the general (non model-specific) HD shotgun questions I see people asking here and elsewhere, and will likely answer some questions you never thought to ask.

Each part is about 54 minutes, but it's all great info. Play it while cleaning your gun or doing housework, or download it for free and listen to it during your workout or while driving.

Topics covered (in general order, they jump around somewhat):

Part A
Roundtable (the Strayers, Ayoob, Gunter, Pepin, & Denney):

*History of shotguns
*Role of a shotgun in HD versus other firearms (shotgun is artillery, handgun is infantry)
*Pros & Cons of different shotgun action types (pump vs semi-auto vs break-action)
*12ga vs 20ga for HD
*Misconceptions about shotgun patterns (you still have to aim it)
*Ammo selection for HD (birdshot vs buckshot vs slugs)
*Dutch loading (potpourri!)
*Novelty & less-lethal ammo
*Limitations of birdshot
*Discussion of different buckshot sizes
*Advantages of the 20ga for HD
*Youth stocks & guns, and shotgun fit for HD (fit it to the smallest person who might be using it)
*The .410 shotgun & .410 rifled revolvers (good for those renegade bagels)

Part B
Roundtable (the Strayers, Ayoob, Gunter, Pepin, & Denney):

*Sporting stocks vs fixed- or folding-stocks with pistol grip vs pistol-grip only (dental work & Rambo night at the gun club)
*Shell lengths & loads for HD, 2.75" vs 2.75" mag vs 3" mag vs 3.5" supermag (diminishing returns)
*Low-recoil loads
*#1 buckshot
*Receiver-mount sidesaddles vs stock-mounted shell carriers
*Scaring off intruders by racking the action
*"Condition 3" or "cruiser-ready" shotgun loading (loaded magazine & empty chamber, or, how to take out a lightbar on a police cruiser)
*Proper safety discipline

Gail Pepin interview with Chris Christian:

*Buckshot vs birdshot vs slugs for HD
*Buckshot sizes for different gauges
*Capability of large birdshot at very close range
*The .410 shotgun for HD (just get a 20ga...)
*Shotgun action types & reliability considerations for HD
*Chokes for HD
*Ammo selection for HD

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hawkeye680
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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by hawkeye680 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:59 pm

Thank you. Never really played with podcasts but this gives me a good reason to.

DaveC
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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by DaveC » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:45 pm

Fairly good and informative program, although I think that the panelists were a bit overly-dismissive of the .410s potential. The advice given is "use it if it is all you have" but don't "go get one." I think that the plethora of Judge revolver sales really is a bizarre phenomenon, something akin to "the madness of crowds." Nonetheless, ammunition manufacturers have responded to this market niche with .410 loads that I'd think merit appraisal from a full-length .410 shotgun barrel

If one was armed for HD with a .357 magnum levergun, experts might concede that it represents a viable option, provided the user trains with it and understands the limitations of the choice... chief among which would be over-penetration .

If one had a Mossberg HS .410/500 or a Mossberg 500 in .410" bore, loaded with Remington "Ultimate Home Defense" [marketing!] 00 buck, there would be 4 .36 cal. lead pellets at 1300fps velocity on target out of a 20-inch shotgun barrel. Shot placement would have to be precise, of course, but such is also the case with a defensive weapon firing a single projectile, no? 60 grains per pellet x 4 pellets = 240-grains of projectile @1300fps. Might be much, much less than a 20-gauge, let alone a 12-gauge, but strikes me as a fairly potent defensive cartridge?
Thoughts?
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by lockoutmonkey » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:04 pm

Can't wait to give these guys a listen. They are all well respected.

DaveC
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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by DaveC » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:31 pm

Interesting appraisal of the No.1 buck shot shell: 100 grains of lead extra than the vaunted 00 buck due to how the 16x.30 cal. pellets "stack" in the shot carrier vs. the 9x.33 or .34 cal. 00 buckshot pellets. That, and discussion of what constitutes an "ideal" shot pattern for defense...
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by Kentactic » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:22 pm

I cant find the podcasts listed. But i listened to a random one and its kinda embarrassing... IDPA shooters have no bussiness talking about Fighting weapons. They train weekly exactly what not to do in a fire fight. They are no more qualified then a guy who is a professional chess player. They both play games that have nothing to do with firearms used in a fighting role. Im hoping the shotgun podcasts are with actual fighting weapons Intstructors?
Last edited by Kentactic on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by Synchronizor » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:25 pm

I put direct links to that episode in the OP. Are they not working for you?

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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by Kentactic » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:27 pm

Synchronizor wrote:I put direct links to that episode in the OP. Are they not working for you?

Sorry im an idiot i clicked the podcasts link.. didnt realize the A,B things were links.

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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by Kentactic » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:53 pm

I had a pretty long list of errors in the first podcast after 20 mins in. I think its a lot easier to just say dont listen to these guys. They are about 33% right 66% bad info. This podcast reminds me of listening to my friends who dont really know much about guns as we hang out in some ones garage and drink beer. I think Joe Biden listened to these guys before he started spouting off at the mouth about HD. They both think a Double barrel shotguns a "Fine choice" lol...

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Re: Required listening on HD shotguns

Post by Synchronizor » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:11 am

DaveC wrote:I think that the plethora of Judge revolver sales really is a bizarre phenomenon, something akin to "the madness of crowds."
I'm normally a big fan of versatility (which is why I'd much rather have a .460 S&W Mag revolver than a .500 S&W Mag), but those .410/.45 revolvers are odd birds, and I never understood why they have such a following. Sure, 4 000B pellets will be effective, but a .45 Colt (or .45 ACP or .454 Casull, as the case may be) slug will be far more effective, especially when you consider that out of a rifled barrel, a bullet will go where you aim, and shot won't. If the most effective defensive load you can carry in those is a .45 Colt bullet, why not just get a normal .45 Colt revolver, and either have a more compact gun or a longer barrel? They're fun range toys - I can vouch for that personally - but they have no advantages as a carry piece (and if you need a snake gun, you can already buy shotshells in most common revolver & auto cartridges).
DaveC wrote:Nonetheless, ammunition manufacturers have responded to this market niche with .410 loads that I'd think merit appraisal from a full-length .410 shotgun barrel
DaveC wrote:If one had a Mossberg HS .410/500 or a Mossberg 500 in .410" bore, loaded with Remington "Ultimate Home Defense" [marketing!] 00 buck, there would be 4 .36 cal. lead pellets at 1300fps velocity on target out of a 20-inch shotgun barrel. Shot placement would have to be precise, of course, but such is also the case with a defensive weapon firing a single projectile, no? 60 grains per pellet x 4 pellets = 240-grains of projectile @1300fps. Might be much, much less than a 20-gauge, let alone a 12-gauge, but strikes me as a fairly potent defensive cartridge?
Thoughts?
A .410 beats chucking rocks obviously; but as they said, because of the way .410 shotguns are built, a gas-operated 20ga will have a very similar level of recoil to a featherlight .410, and will be far more effective. Shotguns are good stoppers because of the amount of lead they put into a target, and .410 puts very little lead into the target. If someone's breaking down your bedroom door and all you have is a .410, any port in a storm. If you're shopping for a "pool gun" for your family to defend themselves with, why pick the less-effective chambering when it doesn't really have any benefits to compensate? The .410 is great for hunting smaller critters or to up the challenge in a clay-shooting game, but a HD situation is not something you should try to make more challenging.
Kentactic wrote:I had a pretty long list of errors in the first podcast after 20 mins in. I think its a lot easier to just say dont listen to these guys. They are about 33% right 66% bad info. This podcast reminds me of listening to my friends who dont really know much about guns as we hang out in some ones garage and drink beer.
And what credentials qualify you to state that people like Massad Ayoob don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the defensive use of firearms?
Kentactic wrote:I think Joe Biden listened to these guys before he started spouting off at the mouth about HD. They both think a Double barrel shotguns a "Fine choice" lol...
Ever watched cowboy action shooting? They can run those things at an impressive rate, even without ejectors. They're obviously not the best choice for most folks, but just like revolvers, they can be very effective in the hands of a skilled shooter. And like revolvers, there's something to be said for the simplicity and compactness of break-action guns. Context aside, I'd honestly consider an old-timer with a well-used double-barrel shotgun more dangerous than some youngster with a polymer-clad, tricked-out, "tacticool" repeater.

What they're not telling people to do is expose themselves and only use the thing as an illegal noisemaker, which is the real problem with crazy Uncle Joe's HD strategy (that, and his utter ignorance in claiming that a 12ga hunting load in a locked-breech firearm is easier to handle than a 60-grain or so bullet from a gas-operated, semi-auto rifle).

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