Light or no light.

[MauiWowwee]

I just came back from the range and was testing out the streamlight tlr-1 on it. Works good but I found the recoil was causing my thumb to turn the light off. I do prefer to have a light on my shotgun if SHTF. I'm gonna save up and buy one of those inforce weapon lights after seeing a review on YouTube. The tlr-1 is gonna go back on my pistol.

http://youtu.be/FhFuN1oPwDU

[Kentactic]

One comprimise ive thought of is putting night lights throughout the house. This way you can see whats going on some what. But its not enough to make a definitive Target ID in many cases. For a Rule of law shotgun yes id say a light is needed. Im still working on one myself. I would have pulled the trigger on a surefire forend if they were available ANYWHERE right now. I dont like the Eotechs because they change the thickness of the forend. I dont like a standard light attached to the mag tube area because your constantly working the action in many functions and losing control of the light. In a SHTF scenario, the name of the game is avoidance. They didnt put lights on pump guns in Vietnam and i wouldnt in a "War zone" either. If dudes are shooting at you and your brave enough to look for muzzle flash then go for it. But one thing i wouldnt recommend is pointing a flashlight everywhere looking for where those pesky bullets are coming from. I understand your dilemma. Im in the same boat. Even in SHTF i can think of scenarios where id like a light. But also many id never dream of turning one on. It really does come down to the "have and not need" deal. But i also like to "have my $350 and not spend it" too lol.. Let me know when you make a decision and why you come to that decision.

[rythomas0704]

Currently I have a NEBO (cheap but bright as hell and tough as nails) 190 lumen rail mounted light I picked up at walmart a while back for $40 mounted to the clamp using a small rail designed for scope mounting on an 870 placed right between the tube and barrel. You can see in the attached pic.

DSC00496.JPG (67 KiB) Viewed 5673 times

Currently no issues whatsoever when under recoil and when I rack the gun it stays almost perfectly on target... I am afraid that a fore end mounted light will move much more. Only time it loses focus of target is when I drop the hammer... but all lights do that.

I too would never dream of using the light in a serious SHTF or combat situation but when checking my home or property after hearing a bump in the night it is great. Besides.... I have a WAY better chance of hitting my target than any a-hole with a handgun that comes into my home.

[Kentactic]

Every time i hear a bump in the night i assume 3-10 dudes with AR's in full retard, just kicked in my door with no other goal but to kill everything. I wont be caught off gaurd. Most HD, enthusiests? Assume they are the badass and the poor guy who broke in with his rusty screwdriver as a weapon will wet his pants when he hears your scaaaary shotgun go "Chick Chick". Never under estimate. Never think the look or sound of a gun will do anything. Assume its a charlie and your in the jungle behind enemy lines. In war a wracking shotgun just gets you killed. Im not saying shoot blindly at all. But dont give the bad guy a chance to shoot first.

[rythomas0704]

Every time i hear a bump in the night i assume 3-10 dudes with AR's in full retard, just kicked in my door with no other goal but to kill everything. I wont be caught off gaurd. Most HD, enthusiests? Assume they are the badass and the poor guy who broke in with his rusty screwdriver as a weapon will wet his pants when he hears your scaaaary shotgun go "Chick Chick". Never under estimate. Never think the look or sound of a gun will do anything. Assume its a charlie and your in the jungle behind enemy lines. In war a wracking shotgun just gets you killed. Im not saying shoot blindly at all. But dont give the bad guy a chance to shoot first.

Never thought of it that way. You are right in that in combat the rack of a shotgun DOES give away your position when trying to be discreet. However, in combat a shotgun is rarely used in a discreet situation. LOL. At home however, most intruders are just as nervous and scared as you are. If they are aware that you are armed and prepared to defend your home they in most cases will retreat. You just need to make sure that you verbally assert yourself before they have the chance to get too close. If you can yell down the stairs to alert them that you are aware of their presence and intent, and that you are armed and prepared to use said weapon, in most cases they will turn tail. Training for home and personal defense has taught me that it is better to diffuse the situation long before you need to pull the trigger. I would much rather NOT kill than kill. But I am fully prepared, mentally and physically.

[Kentactic]

Every time i hear a bump in the night i assume 3-10 dudes with AR's in full retard, just kicked in my door with no other goal but to kill everything. I wont be caught off gaurd. Most HD, enthusiests? Assume they are the badass and the poor guy who broke in with his rusty screwdriver as a weapon will wet his pants when he hears your scaaaary shotgun go "Chick Chick". Never under estimate. Never think the look or sound of a gun will do anything. Assume its a charlie and your in the jungle behind enemy lines. In war a wracking shotgun just gets you killed. Im not saying shoot blindly at all. But dont give the bad guy a chance to shoot first.

Never thought of it that way. You are right in that in combat the rack of a shotgun DOES give away your position when trying to be discreet. However, in combat a shotgun is rarely used in a discreet situation. LOL. At home however, most intruders are just as nervous and scared as you are. If they are aware that you are armed and prepared to defend your home they in most cases will retreat. You just need to make sure that you verbally assert yourself before they have the chance to get too close. If you can yell down the stairs to alert them that you are aware of their presence and intent, and that you are armed and prepared to use said weapon, in most cases they will turn tail. Training for home and personal defense has taught me that it is better to diffuse the situation long before you need to pull the trigger. I would much rather NOT kill than kill. But I am fully prepared, mentally and physically.

Yeah i agree its ideal that they just run away. But to announce your location in the home with your voice and then say your ready to shoot it out? No thanks. Drywall is thin and bullets do well at poking holes in it. The key word you used is MOST intruders are scared and nervous. You know how when you watch horror movies and you think the people being attacked have no chance because they naturally aproach the killer as if he was a normal person. Even if they are a cop and are treating him like a bad guy, you just know hes screwed because you know what kind of a guy hes dealing with and he dosent. That cop has no clue what type of violence is about to come to him. That type of violence isnt even in his vocabulary. Well if that guy breaks into my house the movie will end short. Im prepared for the 1% that isnt scared or nervous. I recommend everyone be. If a gun 3 rooms away scares the guy off then so will pointing at him from down the hall and screaming at him to "STOP" after you suprise the crap out of him. Even better then him running away is holding him at gunpoint until the police arrive.

[rythomas0704]

I suppose you and I both come from different schools... so to speak. I have two young children, 4 years and 8 months. I WILL NOT risk a gun fight if I can avoid it. If my alerting the intruder to me being armed and more than ready to fight can prevent stray bullets from flying then thank god. If I do NOT make it known that I am prepared to fight then it is inevitable that a firefight will ensue when I surprise them.
Also... let me tell you that, as a carpenter, 1/2" to 5/8" drywall times 2, plus the 16" framing of 2x4 studs make it VERY hard to hit your target. Unless the shooter is DIRECTLY opposite you on the other side of a wall his chance of hitting you are VERY slim. I understand where you are coming from Kentactic, I do.. and I am not trying to argue, but my families military background and the hours of HD and Tactical drills and training have taught me that it is better to make yourself known as well as your intentions before confronting and surprising your intruder. If you come around the corner and surprise them they are prone to start shooting... without aiming.
If my son or daughter were to be hit because that intruder started blasting away while surprised I could never live with myself. I would rather the intruder know were I am and be focused on ME... then busy walking around my home looking for things to steal or people to hurt. If I can let them know that there is another armed person in the home then I guarantee that 100% of their focus (if they have not already bailed out) will be on me and my position... which by at this point will be as far from my family and the safe zone (which has already been decided and planned on with my wife who is armed with a breaching shotgun plus .45 when the time arrives) as possible.

[Kentactic]

I understand where your coming from aswell. But im not certain your theory will give the desired result. I feel like if i were in a mindset to try to scare the guy off with noise from the action of my gun i would be acting like a victim mentally already when i need to be focused and prepared for a potentially horrific event. Defending your home means going on the offense. Im not saying go room to room and wait to be shot by the hiding bad guy. But in a fight the most violent, agressive guy usually wins. Ever played paintball? The guy hiding in the bunker shooting for his life always gets bunkered and shot point blank. You need to be controlling the bad guys OODA loop. Not him controlling yours. If your reacting to his actions then hes ahead of you in his OODA loop. And thats not good. That means hes going to be getting shots off first. Ever wonder how the SWAT team always shoots the bad guy before he shoots them when they bust into a room and he KNOWS they are coming? Its because hes behind in his OODA loop. The SWAT guy is already ready to shoot. The bad guy has to react to this information of the SWAT guy having just kicked in the door. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Well that SWAT guy already did Observe, Orient, and Decide, now hes just waiting for the target so he can act.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrxkjRXk7m8

I know James can make a fool of himself from time to time. But bottom line is that dude knows what hes talking about 99% of the time.

[DaveC]

My biggest question about lights is: How do you feel about the lights battery being dead when you need it? I don't shoot as often as I would like to so I would be negligent in keeping the batteries fresh and charged. How do y'all address this issue. I am also thinmking tritium might be an option, but I don't know if I could identify my target with that.

Mark your calendar: On that specific date, you toss the old batteries and replace 'em with new ones...

@Kentactic and rythomas0704: Yes, combat mindset is important to develop and hone. Practice, practice, practice. I've got a "nightlight" in the hall. I have a TLR-1 on a carbine, and a light on my defensive Rem 870. I may not need a light at all, but it is nice to have a light. You could probably buy an emergency flashlight that stays plugged in or charging in a wall socket. You could always toss it or roll it along the floor into another room should the need arise. Kentactic wrote: "They didnt put lights on pump guns in Vietnam and i wouldnt in a "War zone" either." I'm not sure what you mean there. In the Vietnam War there were guys called "tunnel rats" whose job was to clear tunnel networks and look for enemy documents and so on. They had flashlights if they needed them and a six-shot revolver and a knife. Military use of the shotgun has been widespread, but my understanding is that actual study of the shotgun as a military weapon is quite limited: The British used Browning A5 semi-autos in dense triple-canopy jungle in Malaysia fighting the communist Malay Races Liberation Army. The Brits used double-ought buckshot. Range distances were very, very short. The U.S. in Vietnam often used No. 4 buck for a denser pattern at longer ranges, or at least that is my limited understanding.

Police use lights on weapons frequently, including on SMGs/ carbines and shotguns. Police use of the shotgun has been much more extensive than military, and has generated several reports and so on. Don't overlook the obvious: The shotgun has been long used by law enforcement in the U.S. against determined armed assailants. Engagement ranges are typically very, very close. Engagement times are usually very, very rapid and brief. Fact is, we ain't going to war--we don't have support or reinforcements unless the 911 reaction time is really good. We ain't got backup. We very well might have loved ones we need to care for or get out of harms way. I think that martial arts should be a focus for defensive-minded folks, possibly including "combatives" such as the Israeli Krav maga or what-have-you since these are typically more pragmatic than traditional forms and so forth. It is good for physical and mental conditioning. Defensive shotgun classes that emphasize use of cover and movement are great to have. Y'all take care and stay safe!

[DaveC]

Actually returned here to offer a more distilled and simple ".02":

In essence, a soldier is bound by "rules of engagement."
As civilian firearm owners, we are bound by "rule of law."

So that is why I am a bit leery of analogies or scenarios reliant on military tactical doctrines and so on. At the end of the day, a defensive use is a gun fight brought to us, while soldiers and a good many cops too get sent out in the expectation that they may have to go to a gun fight or even full-scale combat. Does this make sense?