Jungle Carbine

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Zebra62
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Jungle Carbine

Post by Zebra62 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:47 am

Lately I have been doing some upgrades to my old British .303 #5 mk. 1 to make her a more useful weapon. I don't put many rounds down range with her. Ammo is expensive and she kicks harder than my Dad's old A-5. Makes for an uncomfortable day at the range when you have to eat Ramen noodles for a week just to afford ammo and then you can't move your right arm because you are so bruised from shhoting.

My current project is installing a scope. Pretty straight forward in more modern weapons, but is a real feat to accomplish when working with vintage weapons.

Issue # 1: I bought a B-Square scope mount for my #5 and installed it per the included directions. Took me all of ten minutes after opening the package. I picked it up from Amazon for less than $40. My biggest concern is fueled by the many negative reviews this mount has claiming it isn't solid, moves back and forth making zeroing impossible. Mine feels solid and I cannot feel any discernable movement with my bare hands. That does not mean movement is there on a sub-atomic level.

Issue #2: The scope I have mounted is an El Cheapo Gamo air rifle scope I am using as a dressing dummy. I know this scope is not designed to take the recoil of a high power round. I read many reviews on the same scope, making keen note of its fragile nature. The scope has served well on our old Daisy BB spitter.
I will in the near future purchase a rifle scope in the $75 to $100 range to use for zeroing and funtional testing of the mount. Should the mount prove sufficient, I will purchase a more suitable scope. Got my eye on a nice Leupold, just don't have the money to go rescue it from Gander Mountain.

Issue #3: When shooting with the iron sights, I have always used a folded towel as a cheek rest/riser to get my eye to the correct level. Even with the Gamo scope mounted, my eye needs to be approximately 1 inch higher. I already tried using a thicker folded towel but it pushed my head too far left and was very unnatural trying to get my head moved enough to get my eye back on target. I have been looking at this product. http://www.accu-riser.com/accu-riser-am ... r-cr-6000/ Most of the reviews are favorable and it isn't very expensive. I can see one of these being rescued in the near future. Much work in the shop will needed to get this issue resolved.

Issue #4: The LOP on this weapon is about 12/12 inches. Too short for me. I can extend that to about 13 1/2 with a slip on recoil pad, but it will screw around with the eye relief for the scope. The scope rings are already mounted back as far as they will go on the mount and the scope is slid as far back as it will go. The bell on the objective end is already touching the front of the mount. When I shoulder the weapon and look through the scope, I have to lean forward a touch to get the correct distance between occular lens and eye. Its all very uncomfortable. I will need to get a scope with a longer tube or longer eye relief (most I have seen are set to around 3 3/4 inch relief) to compesate.

This whole experiment could all be a folly if the mount does not hold zero. No reason to have a scope if you can't hit anything. Should this project fail, I may sell the whole thing and purchase something modern. Have had my eyes on a nice Remington 700 .308 heavy barrel which would look real nice in the rack next to our 870's.
The REAL definition of GUN CONTROL - The ability to keep your sights on your target.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

DaveC
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by DaveC » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:08 pm

Ah yes, the British Lee Enfield No.5 Mk.I carbine. Popular with troops because it was short, light and handy. The Brits made over 100k of those and thought about making it the standard service rifle. But long range accuracy deficiencies and a "wandering zero" scotched that. I agree that the recoil is simply horrific, at least to me! I'd only attempt it with a so-called "wuss pad" or heavily padded shoulder. I thought the recoil on my Mosin-Nagant 1891/59 carbine with a fire-belching 20-in. barrel was bad! Apparently the flash hider is very efficient, to the degree that the reported muzzle flash is less than a standard No.4 Mk.I*

The No.5s were used late in WWII in the Pacific--well, more accurately Indian Ocean--Theater against the Japanse, again in Malaya during the counterinsurgency there, and in Kenya during the Kenya Land and Freedom Army, aka. "Mau-mau" rebellion.

I have a 1939 Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 bolt action rifle that has a no-gunsmith S&K "scout scope mount" for an IER scope. As a cheapskate, I have an NC Star pistol scope installed, but I have to use a "chin weld" instead of a cheek weld to use it! :roll:

I've been looking at stock risers and cheek pads too. Someday I'll have put some money into quality optics for the beast. I've been thinking about the Burris fixed 2.75x scout scope. Admittedly, the glass would be worth way more than the rifle, but it might be a good upgrade! :lol:
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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Zebra62
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Zebra62 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:53 pm

DaveC wrote: But long range accuracy deficiencies and a "wandering zero" scotched that.
Back when I first got he rifle way back in the late 80's I was stationed at Cannon AFB in the booming metropolis of Clovis, New Mexico. Good memories and bad, but definately worth the experience. I ran with a crew of gun nuts with enough firepower to start or end a war. We went shooting virtually every weekend. Back then I was shooting Federal and Remington ammo in the 150 to 180 grain variety and I was pretty good out to about 500 yards with the iron sights. After that, the rounds would literally wander all over the sky. The wandering zero comes into play after you have been shooting for a while and the barrel heats up. Mine starts putting rounds high left. I managed to get my hands on 100 or so rounds of OE .303 one of the local gun shops picked up at a swap meet. They were 174 grain FMJ boattails and did quite a bit better past 500 yards than the Federal or Remington. Now days, I shoot Hornady matchgrade 174 grain FMJ boattails and if I could see that far, I could probably get a respectable group. Getting old sucks.
DaveC wrote: I agree that the recoil is simply horrific, at least to me! I'd only attempt it with a so-called "wuss pad" or heavily padded shoulder. I thought the recoil on my Mosin-Nagant 1891/59 carbine with a fire-belching 20-in. barrel was bad!
This thing does like to kick for certain and the solid rubber butt pad will leave a bruise even when you have it correctly against your shoulder. Back in the day, I would take a few quart sized ziploc freezer bags about half full of air stuffed one inside the other and use them for padding. I could usually get through an afternoon before all of them burst. A roll of duct tape on a bag would extend the life a little.

TRUE STORY: One of my ex brothers in law asked if he could take my .303 hunting one year because his .243 was "getting worked on." Never found out what was getting done to it. ANYWAY, I agreed to let him take it with a few threats on his life if he lost it, broke it etc and a very stern warning about the recoil. He basically blew me off. Off hunting he goes and I don't see him for a few days. When I do see him again, he has his arm in a sling and he is walking real slow, kinda like he had been run over or something.

He told me he was shooting out of a tree stand and took aim on a nice buck a couple hundred yards out. He said it was one of those perfect moments when everything stopped and he knew he would make the shot and come home with a trophy. He squeezed the trigger, the gun fired, he dropped the buck....and broke his collar bone. In an excrutiating amount of pain, he tried to climb out of the stand, lost his single handed grip on the steps and fell to the ground, landing on my rifle he had dropped when his collar bone broke, dislocated his shoulder and broke two ribs.

He was two miles back in the woods and had to leave most of his gear and his kill there. He managed to grab up his backpack and my rifle and hiked back out.

When we made it back out to his lease, the only thing left was the stand and a bloody spot on the ground where the buck had been. It looked like a coyote got it.
DaveC wrote: Someday I'll have put some money into quality optics for the beast. I've been thinking about the Burris fixed 2.75x scout scope. Admittedly, the glass would be worth way more than the rifle, but it might be a good upgrade!
I have been looking at this Barska scope - http://www.amazon.com/BARSKA-1-25-4-5x2 ... rska+scope
For the shooting I will do, this scope should be sufficient plus it has the basic look of the OE #4 sniper scope, albeit shorter. 4.5 magnification should work nice.

DaveC wrote:As a cheapskate, I have an NC Star pistol scope installed, but I have to use a "chin weld" instead of a cheek weld to use it!
I have been thinking about adapting myself to the chin weld method, but something about having my jaw knocked off isn't very appealing. I am going to do some engineering when I get my accu-riser and try somehow to get a piece of wood formed to fit the top of the stock to set the riser on. The total "rise" of the riser is 1 5/8 inch from the stock. I figure if I start out with a 2x2 and Dremel the dog snot out of it, I should be able to get the (approx) 2 inches needed for proper alignment. Its a work in progress.
DaveC wrote:I have a 1939 Mosin-Nagant 1891/30 bolt action rifle
I would love to have one, but they are all taken in my area. I have a buddy who has one sealed in a display cabinet, but all I can do is drool on the glass. His wife gets mad and has to shoo me away from it whenever I am over at thier place.
The REAL definition of GUN CONTROL - The ability to keep your sights on your target.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

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Synchronizor
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Synchronizor » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:50 am

Zebra62 wrote:TRUE STORY: One of my ex brothers in law asked if he could take my .303 hunting one year because his .243 was "getting worked on." Never found out what was getting done to it. ANYWAY, I agreed to let him take it with a few threats on his life if he lost it, broke it etc and a very stern warning about the recoil. He basically blew me off. Off hunting he goes and I don't see him for a few days. When I do see him again, he has his arm in a sling and he is walking real slow, kinda like he had been run over or something.

He told me he was shooting out of a tree stand and took aim on a nice buck a couple hundred yards out. He said it was one of those perfect moments when everything stopped and he knew he would make the shot and come home with a trophy. He squeezed the trigger, the gun fired, he dropped the buck....and broke his collar bone. In an excrutiating amount of pain, he tried to climb out of the stand, lost his single handed grip on the steps and fell to the ground, landing on my rifle he had dropped when his collar bone broke, dislocated his shoulder and broke two ribs.

He was two miles back in the woods and had to leave most of his gear and his kill there. He managed to grab up his backpack and my rifle and hiked back out.

When we made it back out to his lease, the only thing left was the stand and a bloody spot on the ground where the buck had been. It looked like a coyote got it.
That's a heck of a story. A lot can be forgotten with a potential trophy in the sights. A friend of mine has a great story about a hunting buddy who managed to shoot right through the wiring harness on his truck.

Sounds like you might want to add fitting a recoil pad to your stock modding itinerary.

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Zebra62
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Zebra62 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:23 pm

Synchronizor wrote:That's a heck of a story. A lot can be forgotten with a potential trophy in the sights. A friend of mine has a great story about a hunting buddy who managed to shoot right through the wiring harness on his truck.
Same ex brother in law mentioned above modified his truck with a drain hole in the corner of the cab. He always kept his .243 wrapped in a blanket behind the seat. One day he went to pull it out and it went off. He blamed the rifle, but the entire family knew exactly what happened. Round in the chamber, safety off, and he grabs the trigger. He was really made when his insurance wouldn't cover the damage. Go figure.
Synchronizor wrote:Sounds like you might want to add fitting a recoil pad to your stock modding itinerary.
I do have a Remington slip on recoil pad on it right now and it does tone down the recoil quite a bit, but it will still knock your fillings out if you aren't careful.
The REAL definition of GUN CONTROL - The ability to keep your sights on your target.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

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Synchronizor
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Synchronizor » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:09 am

I was watching some older Hickok45 videos on YouTube and found one on the #5 mk. 1. Seems like a neat old carbine, though I can see where the recoil comes from.

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Zebra62
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Zebra62 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:42 am

Finally got around to fixing up a cheek riser. I'm not completely finished with it yet, but it is functional. I am going to wait to finish it until I know my scope and mount will stay true.

Image

I started by taking a piece of 3 inch schedule 40 pvc and cutting two lengths seven inches long, splitting the sections down the middle lengthways. Using my wife's oven and a cookie sheet covered with foil, I heated them up to 250 degrees for about forty five minutes. I rolled them out flat and covered them with a 1 x 12 and placed four cinder blocks on top to hold it all down. My first attempt was with only one cinder block, but as the pvc cooled, it rolled tried to roll back up. After the second cooling, I cut and shaped them to comform with the line of the stock.

I cut a piece of 2x2 seven inches long with 45 degree angles on both ends. The front end was trimmed after the fact when I realized the bolt would not come all the way back to eject or chamber rounds. Two pieces of 1/2 x 2 screwed to the top gave me the correct cheek elevation to see through the scope without having to lift my head much. It is almost perfect where it is. May need another 1/4 at a later date when all other aspects of the weapon are proven worthy. Smoothed and shaped to prevent splinters, then drilled and screwed to the pvc sides. A LONG length of paracord is needed to lace it to the stock and is a pain in the ass to get intstall or remove. Once installed, it is like it is bolted on.

All in all, I am happy with the way it turned out. Hopefully I can get out to the range in a couple of weeks and sight her in. Will keep you posted as things are updated.
The REAL definition of GUN CONTROL - The ability to keep your sights on your target.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

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Synchronizor
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Synchronizor » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:45 am

It ain't exactly graceful, but it looks like it'll get the job done. However, I am curious how that paracord knot on the butt is going to feel with some recoil behind it.

Once you get the shape fine-tuned, I wonder if you could sink some threaded inserts into the comb of the original stock, then drill and counter-sink the riser? If you could get it to hold together solidly, it should make it easier to install and remove, and more streamlined overall.

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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by DaveC » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:20 pm

In light of the hunting accident story, do make sure the scope is not too close to your eye! Yowch!

I would chime in with Synch's observation about the paracord too.... Looks like I'm up to 18 Mosin-Nagant rifles and carbines at this point, but only one has the so-called "scout scope" set up. I'll have to figure out a cheek riser system for it too.
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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Zebra62
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Re: Jungle Carbine

Post by Zebra62 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:28 pm

Synchronizor wrote:It ain't exactly graceful, but it looks like it'll get the job done. However, I am curious how that paracord knot on the butt is going to feel with some recoil behind it.
DaveC wrote:In light of the hunting accident story, do make sure the scope is not too close to your eye! Yowch!

I would chime in with Synch's observation about the paracord too...
Observation noted. I am a bit concerned about that myself. I normally have a slip on recoil pad on it, but with all the extra crap on the back end, it won't fit. When I go to sight it in, I am going to use the ziplock method and hope all goes well. Have been entertaining the idea of a Scorpion recoil pad from ATI. Not sure if it will fit though.

The scope should be far enought from my eye to not kiss me too hard. Its about 3.75 forward, so hopefully.
Synchronizor wrote: Once you get the shape fine-tuned, I wonder if you could sink some threaded inserts into the comb of the original stock, then drill and counter-sink the riser? If you could get it to hold together solidly, it should make it easier to install and remove, and more streamlined overall.
Again, something I am concidering. Not sure I want to drill into my vintage stock but since I don't ever paln on selling it, I may just do it. Time will tell.
The REAL definition of GUN CONTROL - The ability to keep your sights on your target.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

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