I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situations.

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
Blackrock
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I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situations.

Post by Blackrock » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:55 pm

I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situations.

Shot gunners are traditionally taught to point shoot not aim. Which is fine for clay shooting but not combat shooting. When one analyzes the distances that home defense situations occur. The pattern has not had adequate time to develop. The shot gunner is delivering a solid mass of shot. Hence, I would postulate, aiming is required to be effective in home defense situations.

Another point I would make: In Vietnam one bullet in 57,000 hit an enemy. Do you think you can do much better? Yes, you are not in combat but you may not be a trained war fighter who is combat ready. Instead you are Joe Lunch Box awaken from a sound sleep. My point if you do miss. Would you want to appear in court before a lawyer/shark and testify you did not AIM?

Just my Dos Centavos.

Blackrock


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Synchronizor
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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by Synchronizor » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:02 pm

If you're referring to the "point and spray" shotgun shooting promoted by films, TV, and video games, I'm in full agreement. I wince every time I see some self-promoted "operator" referring to their pistol-grip-only shotgun as a "hallway gun".

On your terminology though, I think you're confusing point-shooting with the afore-mentioned BS. Point-shooting (done correctly) is a legitimate method for making very rapid shots using a single index (usually a gun's front sight) and a consistent hold & stance, instead of taking the time to line everything up as with long-range, high-precision shooting. With proper and consistent technique, this type of shooting is quite accurate at close ranges, and it's much faster for acquiring and transitioning between targets than "traditional" aiming. In the stress and tunnel-vision of a real defensive shooting - where the the eyes and mind instinctively focus on the threat instead of the gun - the technique also has the benefit of employing simple forms that run on practice-instilled muscle memory rather than complex actions that depend on active thought.

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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by DaveC » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:57 pm

Personally, I am not aware of any modern tactical trainer or school that advocates not aiming the shotgun in a defensive scenario. In my first defensive shotgun class, we were instructed that at times an "underarm assault position" [their terminology, not mine] at extreme close distance might necessitate holding the shotgun under the dominant arm, tightly to the body, and using a "point-shoot" method. But this was at near contact distance. In addition, we also went in for a shot at literally contact distance.

You are correct that a defensive shotgun must be aimed. Gabiel Suárez described three "zones" to discover using patterning tests:
"A zone" "from arm's length to seven paces." The shot pattern will not have expanded "to any discernible degree." Might as well be shooting a handgun or a carbine for all intents and purposes.

"B zone" extends beyond 7 yards. This is where the patterning of the shotgun should be undertaken: from 7 to 20 or 25 yards depending on the particular combination of shot and shotgun. The vast majority of defensive shootings occur well within this range. Forget the Vietnam War analogies: this is close-quarter battle in the confines of a house, apartment, or relatively populated area for the most part, not "walking point" in triple canopy rain forest or slogging around as "bait" so that when the VC or NVA revealed themselves, they could be blasted with overwhelming firepower including air and artillery support...

"C zone" is when a slug has to be used, e.g. from 20 to 25 yards out to about 100 yards or so.

I had a buddy who was surprised at home by a residential burglar. He was in the shower, jumped out, grabbed a 12-ga. Rem 870 and held the crook [a junkie] at gun-point until the police arrived. He was cold, naked, shivering, and as one might expect, the thief tried to draw him into a conversation, which he avoided with simple, barked commands: "shut up." "Don't move." etc. I've also encountered people who were carrying groceries into their homes who surprised a burglar coming out with their TV and home electronics. To me, what has to be understood is that a potential defensive situation could arise at any time, and typically while one is not in "condition yellow" let alone "condition orange or red!" :oops:

Good luck with your training, and do pattern the shotgun at various distances. Pace off the interior spaces of the home and the yard or environs and have an idea of what the spread would be. Training is always a good idea. Stay safe!
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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by Kentactic » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:17 pm

To point a gun naturally where the eyes lead the hands is ok for 7 yards or less with a long gun in my opinion. Now let me add that you still must shoulder the weapon and look down the sights.

I know the odds of missing is low because i can stand 5 yards away from a steel waist up target and draw my pistol and pull the trigger as fas as i can while looking at the target never the gun and not miss at all. Thats 2 points of contact. With a shotgun you get 4 points of contact and less sight movement.

The hands follow the eye. You still are "aiming". Just not like you would when shooting a slug 100 yards.

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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by Automag » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:37 pm

Blackrock wrote:I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situations.

Shot gunners are traditionally taught to point shoot not aim. Which is fine for clay shooting but not combat shooting. When one analyzes the distances that home defense situations occur. The pattern has not had adequate time to develop. The shot gunner is delivering a solid mass of shot. Hence, I would postulate, aiming is required to be effective in home defense situations.

Black Rock
I don't know who you're referring to when you say shot gunners are trained to point and shoot, not aim. Even if shooting at clay targets, you have to aim and lead the target. While i was in the military we were always trained to aim ( i was trained on shotguns too ), how the hell are you going to hit anything if you don't aim. You're opening statement makes me wonder who you are talking about in the first place. The only time i would'nt aim "properly" in a home defense situation is if the intruder was so close they were almost able to grab my weapon or was within 10 feet and coming at me. When you say it's fine for clay shooting, not combat shooting, you're infering you're experienced with combat shooting. I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt on that, i can tell you that i am trained in combat shooting. I agree that of course you have to aim in a home defense situation even if using a short barrel.

EDIT: When i said when i would'mt aim, i meant to say if an intruder was 10-15 ft and coming at me, and i did'nt have my shotgun in my shoulder, i would fire from the hip using the point and shoot method. This is only in situation where, say i heard a noise in the middle of the night, and just was carrying my shotgun low and investigating the noise, and was suprised by an intruder coming at me fast. If i actually heard someone breaking in, or was sure there was an intruder in my home, i would have my shotgun in my shoulder and ready to fire as i responed to any possible threat.
Last edited by Automag on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by Bastard File » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:42 am

I've attended several shotgun only schools where the focus of the training was combat/self defense shooting. NEVER during any of that instruction was any participant ever told not to aim.

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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by navyshooter » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:05 am

why wouldn't you aim? Front sight, center mass.......
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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by Alpha Wolf » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 am

Extremely close range point shooting can work. Like 7 yards or less.

Other than that, regardless of my weapon I am aiming. I do not want to hit someone I do not want to hit..
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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by Blackrock » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:02 pm

Gentleman, thank you for sharing your insightful thoughts and comments.

I was referencing to the skill set necessary for the various clay shooting sports. Whose participants outnumber other disciplines and effectively have injected their techniques into other disciplines. Much as, Bullesye shooting once dominated police training. Below is a post that I believe illustrates my contention.

Again, Thank You!

Blackrock

Skeet/Trap/Sporting Clays

http://www.rem870.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=247

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Why It's There

Our eyes can only focus at one distance at a time. Rifle and pistol shooters know that to hit with iron sights, they have to let the rear sight and the target blur while they keep the front sight in sharp focus. Try that with a shotgun-as many people do-and you'll miss. Here's why "drawing a bead" on a target is the worst way to shoot a shotgun: As long as you're looking at the target, your eyes guide your hands, which in turn direct the barrel to the right place. As soon as you glance back at the barrel to measure your lead or check your "aim," your eyes stop feeding your hands the data needed, and the gun stops dead.

To hit with a shotgun, you must keep your eye on the target while the barrel of the gun registers as a blurred smudge in your peripheral vision. That's where the bead comes in. Don't think of it as a sight; it's more like the red handkerchief you tie on a long 2x4 sticking out of the bed of your truck. It serves as a reference, as a flag or marker, so you're aware of the muzzle as you bear down on the target. You should never carefully measure leads, but the front bead can help you see in an instant when you've got the right gap between barrel and bird.
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Re: I call Bull Shit on not aiming in home defense situation

Post by xridgelinerx » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:00 am

Interesting discussion here. I think those that are saying "don't aim" are really offering a different style of aiming. No one is saying, "pick up the shotgun, pull the trigger and hope for the best!". Aiming a rifle is different than leading flushed birds which is different than pointing at an intruder 10 ft away. They are all AIMING techniques. Just different.

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