HD ammo options ... please help me narrow them down!

[gd2a]

Hello All

I need to buy some shells and become fully acquainted with my new Remington 870 Express 12 GA, 18 inch barrel.

I just got the gun for Christmas and as chance would have it there is a massive run on the preferred shells. What has been suggested and what I cannot seem to find for much less than 2.00/shell is: 2 3/4 inch low recoil 00 Buck.

As I ask around and read what articles I can find; it seems for a home defense round folks like everything from #4 to 00. If 00 is the best and #4 is adequate can I logically assume that #'s 3,2 and 1 are better than 4?

In time (as I have for my handguns) I'm sure I'll find a couple favorites but right now I just need to establish a starting point and a suitable range of options.

I live in South Florida and have already begun looking into shotgun classes (I'd happily take advice on this topic as well) and they run the gamut from requiring students to bring 50 rounds to 250 rounds for the course. I was introduced to ammoseek.com and buying by the case seems to be the way to go. With that said, if I can avoid it, I'd rather not purchase 250 rounds of an inappropriate shell.

I'm wide open to all advice and suggestions and greatly appreciate as much feedback as possible.

Thank you kindly,

[Randomguns]

http://www.rem870.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21

[Jamie]

Most shotgun classes, (I've been looking into them, also in S Fla), most require a mix of ammo, mainly #8 shot, some 00 buck, some slugs. IMO, low recoil 00 buck inside home distances, #1 buck, (if it can be found), seems like a better round in theory. Outside the home distances up to 40 yards, I would go with the Federal 00 buck with the 'Flite Control' wads. There and beyond, slugs. Just watched Hickock45 hit a table top, (about the size of a small refrigerator), with slugs at 230 yards!

[DaveC]

Good luck finding ammunition during the current frenzy/ mass hysteria...

Low recoil 00 buck is great. Options run the gamut from Federal, WInchester "Win-Lite," Remington, etc. etc. Get several kinds if you can to do some patterning.

In theory, No.1 buckshot would be best. It is recommended by bean counters and ballisticians, but the reputation of the 12-gauge as a "fight stopper" was built on a century of experience and anecdotal information on 00 buck. [Federal was supposed to come out with a LE No.1 buck using the "flite control wad" but apparently, it is sold only to LE, I've never found it for sale. Remington Express No.1 buck with 16 .30 cal. pellets is what I use] No.4 buckshot was used widely by police stake-out units "back in the day" because it produces less penetration in building materials than 00 buck. During the Vietnam war, American troops were shooting at farther ranges with shotguns than the British had during the Malaya counterinsurgency campaign against the Malay Races Liberation Army. The Brits found a point-man with a semi-auto Browning with 00 buck was ideal for countering ambushes using 00 buck in very dense jungle. Some American troops in Vietnam apparently found that No.4 buck maintained a denser pattern at longer range, assuring that two or three or more lead pellets would strike the target at the point that buckshot loses effectiveness and slugs should be used. Remington's "Ultimate Home Defense" shell is either No.4 buck [preferred] or a mix of heavy birdshot...Like #2 and #4 or something like that.

As for defensive shotgun classes, I've taken two, and in both something like 250 or more shells are required. Most of the ammunition will be #8 or #7 bird-shot, which can be purchased in bulk during upland bird season and so on. You should get lots of buckshot to pattern the gun and to practice with during the class. Most classes also require up to, say, 15 slugs. I use Fiocchi low-recoil slugs, which can often be had in 10-round boxes instead of 5-shell boxes. Good luck down there in Florida. Do your part in eradicating those darn invasive Burmese pythons!! Should be great practice with your 870!

[Synchronizor]

Here's another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=521

My short (relatively speaking...) recommendations on the subject:

>2.75" non-magnum buckshot is the go-to HD round. Anything from #4 to 0000 will do the job, choose the size based on what lethal range you want to work with.

>Low-recoil buckshot works just fine at HD range, if it's more manageable or better-patterning for you and your gun.

>Slugs have some uses, but are dangerous for longer distances than shot, so watch where you're sending them. You'll want to look for Foster (often mistakenly called rifled) or Brenneke slugs. Sabot slugs are intended for use in rifled shotgun barrels; they'll fire safely out of smoothbore barrels, but won't be accurate.

>Against humans, birdshot is only a reliable stopper at very close ranges (or if you get attacked by birds). Cheap, bulk-pack target loads are great for practicing with, but skip the Winchesters, they're crap. If you're taking a training course, this stuff should be fine for most of the drills (you can double-check with the organization running it, but this is usually the case), as long as it runs reliably in your gun.

>Save magnum shells for hunting. They make the gun tougher to handle without adding much in terms of effectiveness.

>Less-lethal loads may have some applications, but shouldn't be your first choice if the situation's come to the point where you're justified in blasting away with a shotgun. In that case, it's either their lives or the lives of you and your family; guess which one should be your priority.

>Skip gimmick loads like tacks, darts, strung buck, dimes, rock salt, flamethrower shells, etc. If they were really as good as the marketing claims, why are military & police forces still using plain old buckshot & slugs?

>Features to look for in buckshot loads that can help it pattern better include buffering, hardened or plated shot, and cup-style wads. Make sure to pattern test any load you intend to depend on, using your own gun, so you know exactly what it'll do (and what you can do with it) at various ranges.

My not-so brief input, for what it's worth.

[gd2a]

First off, thank you very much for some very insightful and helpful replies; I sincerely appreciate those that took the time to share their thoughts!

Second, I was finally able to track down quality 00 for a fair (considering the present climate) price: Federal Law Enforcement 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot 8 Pellets.

One last question about shot size since not all sites use the same terminology; if it states that it's #4 - #1 is that always going to be buckshot or does birdshot also have low numbers?

Thanks again,

Matt

[Synchronizor]

One last question about shot size since not all sites use the same terminology; if it states that it's #4 - #1 is that always going to be buckshot or does birdshot also have low numbers?

There are both buckshot and birdshot sizes from 1-4. For sizes, #1 & #4 birdshot are .16 and .13 caliber pellets respectively, while the same-numbered buckshot sizes are .30 and .24 caliber pellets (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm too tired to dig out my size list, so those numbers are from memory).

As for telling one from the other, it'll vary depending on the manufacturer, but generally buckshot loads are specifically described as such (#4 Buckshot, #4 Buck, or #4B for example), while birdshot would be referred to as either #4 birdshot or just #4 shot. Also, birdshot quantity is usually listed as a weight of shot in ounces, while any buckshot load is described by a specific number of pellets.

[DaveC]

I'm too slow "on the draw!" Synchronizor has it up post, and much more succinctly...
I wrote:

gd2a:

In essence, it is the same convention. The higher the number the smaller the shot.

Number 9 and 8 and 7 are shot sizes for practice, Cowboy Action shooting on steel knock-down targets, and hunting game like white wing doves and so on. Maybe codornices/ quail too, if I recall correctly.
Number 6 to 4 are good on rabbits, hares, etc.
still larger shot sizes are intended for larger game birds and so on.

My recommendation for HD/ defensive use: stick with buckshot: No.4 buck is the smallest buckshot size. I've got some No.1 buck too [Remington], and some 0 buck, which is quite old but still goes "bang," and Federal and Winchester low-recoil 00 buck. I've seen 000 buck, which is favored by some folks, and read about 0000 but never actually seen it.

The Federal 8-pellet tactical 00 buckshot load should be excellent. Federal shotshells work very well in my Rem.870.

In a 20-gauge, you'll find Remington and Winchester No.3 buckshot shells are about the largest size buckshot in that gauge/caliber. I think some companies make a No.2 in 20-gauge as well. My wife has a lever-action .410 shotgun, and there is a Remington 00 buck shell with four or five pellets. If you ever see the .410 buckshot from Federal labelled ".410 handgun" on the box, believe-it-or-not, it really is intended for .410/.45 lc revolvers and does not work reliably in a Marlin .410 levergun. My wife and I were both somewhat surprised to make that discovery...

[ponycarman]

I saved this pic a while back because I thought it was helpful. It gives a visual of the different sizes.



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[Kentactic]

Youve got some great responses on here. But to add a tad to this. The goal with the different things like Buffering, hardened pellets some times copper or nickel plated, Low recoil in some cases, etc is all there to help reduce deformation of the pellets. A round pellet flies straighter then a lop sided one. All those things just help keep the pattern tighter. If you buy a cheap load you will get few or none of these features making the pattern poor. In my experience Low recoil shells that have less powder and not just 8 pellets instead of 9 for example has a huge impact on pattern. The reduced velocity deforms the pellets less upon initial acceleration. If you have 8 pellets instead of 9 in order to get the "Low recoil" your gaining nothing in reducing deformation as the velocity may likely still be normal but with less weight. So you get the same shock to the pellets with fewer pellets flying. That loads "Low Recoil" purpose is specifically for less recoil and not a better pattern.
So your looking for a decent pattern at a good price the first feature you should be looking for in your ammo is less velocity. Low recoil costs the manufacture nothing extra (they actually save on powder) And its a big help in keeping the pattern tight. Now if you can find a load at a price you can afford that has other features like buffering, hardened pellets etc to keep the pattern tight a normal velocity a full power 2.75'' load is my preffered choice. Another important thing is a Wad that encases the pellets. Some cheap Buckshot comes with a wad that uses a plunger that pushes from behind and does nothing to hold the pellets together once they leave the barrel. Some loads like the Federal Flight control have wads that stay with the pellets for quite some time. Any wad with pedals of some kind is going to be of some help though. Not only in pattern but in less time spent scrubbing lead off the bore when you finish shooting.