Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

[DaveC]

Ive seen the ballistic gel tests where 00 penetrates like 14" or something. I think its safe to say that is nothing like a human. I highly doubt a 00 buck pellet could pass through the upper body of a man and still have any lethal capability left. There just not enough energy there. The lead breaks down to like 1/3 its origonal size. Id bet money no pellets make it out the back of a man. To say adding 18 more flying objects to the shot is a safer HD option dosent register with me.

These folks apparently found 20-inches with 00 buck and 14 or so with some other loads:
FWIW http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20Gauge/ ... 0Table.pdf

[Synchronizor]

Ive seen the ballistic gel tests where 00 penetrates like 14" or something. I think its safe to say that is nothing like a human. I highly doubt a 00 buck pellet could pass through the upper body of a man and still have any lethal capability left. There just not enough energy there. The lead breaks down to like 1/3 its origonal size. Id bet money no pellets make it out the back of a man. To say adding 18 more flying objects to the shot is a safer HD option dosent register with me.

Ballistic gel is not a human body. It's a testing material that is a only a rough estimate of flesh, and is more useful for comparing different ammunition than exactly predicting terminal performance. 00B most assuredly has the capacity to penetrate all the way through a human with enough velocity to cause damage, especially at close ranges without any obstructions. This potential has been more than proven in police and military shootings, and there have been cases where these over-penetrating pellets have gone on to cause unwanted collateral damage. This is why police departments have shown an interest in smaller buckshot sizes for urban use. #1 in particular has proven to be a well-balanced size, and has been adopted by many departments in the southern US, where that size was also popular for hunting.

I'm not saying 00B is a bad choice by any means, I use it myself when I carry my shotgun in the woods for protection, as well as for HD when I can't find the smaller stuff. Right now, my 870 is leaning up against the wall with a tube full of 00, and if some armed nut starts smashing down my door, I have no lack of confidence that it will drive home just how poorly they chose their victim (hint: if a fellow has a Gadsden flag flying in front of his dwelling and shotshell Christmas lights in the window, he's probably not going to greet intruders with a plate of cookies).

A HD shotgun is best used in an "artillery" role anyway. Deployed from a planned, defensible position where you know where the shots will be going if you miss (there are reasons beyond wall penetration for why a shotgun or rifle is not the best firearm for moving through the house to round up family members or seek out intruders). In that situation, the dangers presented by pass-through are minor if you plan properly.

Effective as they are though, fewer, larger pellets do not transfer energy as quickly as a larger number of smaller ones; and if they pass through the target, that is just wasted energy. The extra pellets in a #4 or #1 buckshot load produces a denser pattern, not a larger one, so the collateral potential in a barrier-free path is the same (though with less energy per stray pellet, they will shed velocity faster and more easily). This means more wounding channels, faster energy transfer, a greater chance of disrupting vital bodily functions, and less pass-through. Inside the home, all this makes smaller buckshot slightly deadlier, but more importantly, safer. That is why I prefer to use it when I can find it.

Ive only tested one #4 buck load. It was remingtons 2.75". In an 18" cylinder bore it was horrible. I might have gotten 50% hits on a 3ft by 2.5ft target at 25 yards. Obviously that means nothing about #4 bucks ability to patrern. But i never tested further as i couldnt justify a use outside of an ambush load. In that scenario a wide pattern would be desirable.

If your HD plan calls for the ability to make a 25-yard shot, you may want to look into a choke (or possibly some tighter-patterning loads).

[Kentactic]

Im not so good with the multiple quotes thing.. But first of all my shotgun is more then an HD gun. And my current #00 load pattern still fits inside a mans upper body at 25 yards, no need to choke a shotgun unless your hunting birds. Choke is actually a great word to describe what it does to the ability of a shotgun in a fighting role. It chokes it. Heres a little tip. A wad with petals on it acts like a choke by keeping the pellets in a smaller diameter as they move down the barrel. and they arent smashed to that diameter in the last 3 inches like a choke. Next i made the point that ballistic gel isnt a match to human flesh.. no need to repeat me. I also made it clear that theres no difference in pattern potential as far as size with any given caliber shot. You keep saying more wound channels with more pellets, but they are smaller wound channels too. Again i just dont see #00 going through a mans upper body then 2 sheets of drywall and still doing any harm. If you can show detailed reports of #00 going through a man and a wall and harming a person on the other side id like to see it. I would imagine in many cases the pellets missed the bad guy all together and kept on going. I want all the penetration i can get with a shotgun while still maintaining the use of a pattern. The smaller size pellets look real good until the bad guys shooting blindly from behind a couch or around a corner in your house. Anyone can run anything they want but ill stand by my opinion that any smaller or bigger pellets is a down grade. I wouldnt recommend looking to Local PD for any shooting tips thats for sure. More so id run from anything those guys do. Have you met cops before? its like talking to me on year one of shooting guns.

[DaveC]

Isn't the sheer versatility of the shotgun a great thing?

I think folks recognize there is no "one-size fits all" approach. Back when I lived in a more suburban situation with a bigger house and more space around it, I was all about the 00 buck choice. Now that I'm in a cramped and more densely populated "downsized" circumstance with ample foot traffic just outside my window, my own choices have changed as a result. "Your mileage may vary" as the saying goes.

Bottom line:
00 buck: Great choice for PD/HD. Has a long reputation--chiefly among LEOs--as a "fight stopper."
No.4 buck from a 12-ga. is about on par with No.3 buck from a 20-ga. Not the most penetrative or powerful load from a 12-ga. by any means... Potent "bad medicine" nonetheless.

As the late Abbie Hoffman once put it in "Piece Now" in Steal This Book: "The shotgun is the ideal defensive weapon. It's perfect for the vamping band of pigs or hard-heads that tries to lynch you."

I bid you peace and blessings--namaste

[Synchronizor]

Im not so good with the multiple quotes thing..

When you're writing a post, you can scroll down below the text field to where the previous posts are displayed, select only the part of a post you want to quote, then click the "quote" button on that specific post (if you click a quote button on a different post, it'll assign the wrong name) to place the selected text into your reply with the proper BBCode tags. Alternatively, you can insert a quote of an entire post, then delete any text you don't want displayed.

Next i made the point that ballistic gel isnt a match to human flesh.. no need to repeat me.

I probably could have been more clear there. What I meant to convey is that penetration in a human body can deviate from gel simulations in both directions. Depending on whether or not a pellet encounters bones and denser organs, gel penetration figures can be an underestimate as well as an overestimate of performance.

You keep saying more wound channels with more pellets, but they are smaller wound channels too.

A .24- or .25-caliber pellet through the aorta or spinal cord is just as deadly as a .32- or .33-caliber pellet, and it's been more than proven that #4 and #3 are perfectly capable of penetrating that deep when used at appropriate ranges. If those sizes were as weak as you say, the 20ga would be useless for defensive purposes.

Again i just dont see #00 going through a mans upper body then 2 sheets of drywall and still doing any harm. If you can show detailed reports of #00 going through a man and a wall and harming a person on the other side id like to see it. I would imagine in many cases the pellets missed the bad guy all together and kept on going.

I'm not privy to police reports, but I know there have been casualties due to pellet pass-through in police shootings. They're referred to by individuals who do have access to those records in the podcast I linked in another thread. This is more of a concern in urban police engagements than a lot of HD situations; but it's still a consideration for those who live in densely-populated areas or apartment buildings, where a threat may have to be dealt with before all noncombatants can be accounted for.

I want all the penetration i can get with a shotgun while still maintaining the use of a pattern. The smaller size pellets look real good until the bad guys shooting blindly from behind a couch or around a corner in your house. Anyone can run anything they want but ill stand by my opinion that any smaller or bigger pellets is a down grade.

If your HD scenarios include defeating barriers (though I'm not sure a normal sofa counts as such) with your shotgun, then larger pellets do make sense.

Again, there's just no single load that is best for every situation. People need to consider what they may have to deal with, what tools they will have at their disposal, and what hazards are present in the environment, and plan accordingly. Small buckshot, large buckshot, and slugs each have their strengths and downsides; the optimum choice will change depending on the circumstances. I'm not attacking your personal selection or your HD strategy; I'm just disagreeing with your intimation that 00B - capable as it may be - is the optimal choice for every scenario.

[Bastard File]

I agree on the use of using 00 Buckshot in a HD shotgun, but I disagree that choking a shotgun is only good for shooting birds, but opinions vary in that regard. I like choked HD shotguns and use Improved Cylinder for that application. I also like sights on my HD shotguns as well, again, my personal preference.

[Pigiron]

I've gone from 2 3/4" 00 Buck to 3" #4 Buck to 3" 00 Buck and now to 3" #1 Buck. All will work well, I'm sure of it.

[MStarmer]

I would think that at most distances (at least in my home) that even rubber buckshot would be effective and pose slightly less risk to unintended targets. But as has been stated all people are not alike in mass, shape and clothing. There are plenty of ballistic reports available on different loads, if memory serves me Ed Sanow and Fackler come to mind. The fact is it's amazing what people can tolerate while on drugs, alcohol, suffering from mental illness or just plain anger. Just like OC, Tasers and pain compliance techniques have little to no effect on some, and are crippling to others the same goes with gunshots. Granted eventually all will succumb, it's just a matter of how long this process will take.

Personally I load buckshot because I want the penetration if I have to shoot thru a wall or door, but I think just about anything coming out of a 12ga is going to get the job done. Again keeping in mind the distances we are talking about. If I lived in a more rural area where maybe bears or moose were a concern then I might thing about slugs. I really can't think of too many situations where buckshot wouldn't suffice for most home owners.

[DaveC]

The final word on birdshot for defensive use.

Suppose you find yourself in a remote cabin in the woods for a weekend of shooting clay pigeons, cleaning up the shotguns, then quaffing beer with your friends when suddenly the zombiepocalypse really does break out and all you have are smaller birdshot on hand... Saw that movie? OK:

Suppose you are traveling in a foreign land with your trusty 870 to do some interesting shotgun competition. Or perhaps some bird hunting. This distant nation has highly restrictive laws on most firearms other than shotguns, and bird hunting remains one of the few outlets for the shooting sports, but ammunition types are restricted.

Here's how to use birdshot for defense as a highly frangible slug:
Home Guard Manual, 1941 (1941 reprint; Stroud, UK: Tempus, 2006) ISBN: 0752438875, pp. 68-69:

6--Shotgun
(A) (i.) This is quite definitely a NEW ARM for the Home Guard. [...]
(ii.) The choke (left) barrel should have an ordinary cartridge, say No.3 shot (No.2 if procurable). the half-choke (right) barrel should have a specially prepared cartridge as set out in the notes below. Units [of the British Home Guard] are urged to demonstrate to all ranks the effectiveness of the shotgun as a defensive weapon.

(B) The results of actual experiments are set out below:--
(i.) Cartridge evenly ringed with knife. Supposed to allow the outer end to act in a somewhat similar manner to shrapnel [sic]. Very difficult to gauge correct depth of cut. Not satisfactory even with extreme care. Outer end of case sticks about half-way down the barrel three times out of five, causing delay before firing next shot.
(ii.) Cartridge cut straight through between center wads leaving a narrow strip of uncut casing. Not satisfactory. In many cases very difficult to insert in breech: outer end sticks in barrel as above. Don't waste time with either of the above methods.
(iii) Extract shot from cartridge. Using as a mould the outer end of another cartridge case which as been cut in two, fill slowly with melted candle grease, dropping as much shot as possible into the grease as it fills. Allow to cool, and fill cavity caused by contraction until level. This slug, if allowed to cool until absolutely hard and then inserted in place of shot, is very effective. A few pellets break away and make a slight scatter around the main slug, which has good penetration."

http://www.gunfuntv.com/videos/ammuniti ... hells.html

[MStarmer]

If the Zombie Apocalypse breaks out I don't think I'll have time to "prep" my ammo like this .

Funny, first place I heard this was on the MagPul shotgun video, Chris Costa did it for "info only" and kind of as a last ditch effort. I personally don't have any interest in trying it.