Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
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DaveC
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by DaveC » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:32 pm

lockoutmonkey wrote:Do you mean smaller as in 400 buckshot?
"Tactical" low-recoil Federal 12-gauge 00 buck has 8 pellets.

Remington makes a "Home Defense" .410 shotshell with four 00 buck or 000 buck pellets. Is that what you are referring to? Or are you referring to those Aguila "mini" shells? :?:

I will say that my wife and I have a .410 Marlin levergun. The Federal .410 Handgun ammunition intended for use in the much-hyped Taurus Judge and S&W .410/.45 LC revolvers will not work reliably in the full-sized shotgun. I've never thought much about .410s, but now that actual Winchester PDX, Remington 00 buck, and other defensive loads have been developed for the Judge revolvers, my thinking on them in a full-size .410 shotgun barrel has come around. My wife simply likes lever guns, and she can put a lot of holes in a target at typical defensive ranges with a lever-action .410 fitted with XS aperture sights lemme tell ya... :o
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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Synchronizor
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by Synchronizor » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:12 pm

lockoutmonkey wrote:Do you mean smaller as in 400 buckshot?
I'm talking about smaller pellet sizes, not lower pellet counts.

lockoutmonkey
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by lockoutmonkey » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:13 pm

As in #4 buck or #3 or #4 turkey?

DaveC
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by DaveC » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:07 pm

I switched from "Win-Lite" low recoil 00 buck to No.4 buck Federal HD ammo in my Rem. 870 when I moved to the "Texas Metropolis" and in my S&W/Howa 3000 copy of the Rem. 870 I went from "Win-Lite" 00 buck to Remington No. 1 buckshot.

Personally, I favor buckshot for personal defense. Former LEOs I've chatted with favor 00 or even 000 buck. A few claimed that No.4 buck was fairly standard issue for urban issue...
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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Synchronizor
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by Synchronizor » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:18 am

lockoutmonkey wrote:As in #4 buck or #3 or #4 turkey?
#4 buckshot. #4 birdshot is too small to be a reliable stopper except at absolute point-blank ranges (plus, turkey loads tend to be much harsher to shoot than buckshot)
DaveC wrote:I switched from "Win-Lite" low recoil 00 buck to No.4 buck Federal HD ammo in my Rem. 870 when I moved to the "Texas Metropolis" and in my S&W/Howa 3000 copy of the Rem. 870 I went from "Win-Lite" 00 buck to Remington No. 1 buckshot.

Personally, I favor buckshot for personal defense. Former LEOs I've chatted with favor 00 or even 000 buck. A few claimed that No.4 buck was fairly standard issue for urban issue...
#4 used to be more commonly issued to police as an "urban load", but a lot of departments have since moved away from it because it wasn't a reliable stopper through barriers at long ranges, such as shooting through car bodies during highway confrontations.

But for use at close ranges inside the home, #4 buckshot is devastating. Unless someone sent a Terminator after you, no intruder is going to be able to shake off 27 .24-caliber wound channels, and the smaller pellets are far less likely to overpenetrate and harm innocent bystanders.

Kentactic
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by Kentactic » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:14 pm

Ive seen the ballistic gel tests where 00 penetrates like 14" or something. I think its safe to say that is nothing like a human. I highly doubt a 00 buck pellet could pass through the upper body of a man and still have any lethal capability left. There just not enough energy there. The lead breaks down to like 1/3 its origonal size. Id bet money no pellets make it out the back of a man. To say adding 18 more flying objects to the shot is a safer HD option dosent register with me.

lockoutmonkey
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by lockoutmonkey » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:27 pm

I purchased a couple of boxes of #4 buckshot last week. I will have to give them a try and see how they shoot.

When trying these loads out, what seems to be the best target for this? I have been looking at the orange rubber reactive boucing targets lately. They look like a lot of fun. Do you just hang a silouette and shoot them for pattern?

Kentactic
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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by Kentactic » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:40 pm

Even just a white poster board for a dollar and some masking tape will give you several pattern tests. After each shot just tape the holes. I test at 7yd 15yd and 25yd.

Ive only tested one #4 buck load. It was remingtons 2.75". In an 18" cylinder bore it was horrible. I might have gotten 50% hits on a 3ft by 2.5ft target at 25 yards. Obviously that means nothing about #4 bucks ability to patrern. But i never tested further as i couldnt justify a use outside of an ambush load. In that scenario a wide pattern would be desirable.

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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by lockoutmonkey » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:58 pm

Good idea. I was considering paper plates. Cheap and plentiful for close range testing.

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Re: Home defense: Bird shot, Buck shot or Slugs ?

Post by DaveC » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:04 pm

I am glad you've never missed a moving target. I think overpenetration is mostly a concern with household walls for pellets that don't hit the intended target?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

00 buck penetrates more in modern, crummy construction materials than smaller buckshot sizes. I live in a very old Texas house with pretty thin walls with neighbors and a public parking lot on one side. For that reason I line the walls with heavily-laden bookshelves and use No.4 buck these days...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

An important observation--at least to me--is that any reliable antipersonnel/defensive ammo simply will go through light cover and most common building materials... Perhaps some of the pistol-caliber projectiles that have come out most recently like the Hornady FTX bullet or the so-called "Guard Dog" from Federal may reliably expand, and thus penetrate a bit less. It all stresses the importance of aiming.
Alle Kunst ist umsonst, wenn ein Engel in das Zündloch prunst.

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