Info and suggestions needed for my build

Tactical, combat, military, law enforcement and home defense use of a Remington 870 shotgun.
roamingaz
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Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by roamingaz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:15 am

I found this forum looking for ideas for my shotgun build I am starting and I have to say this is becoming one of my favorite forums, very helpful post in here. I have owned several nice shotguns but this is my first time putting one together myself. This shotgun will serve as a home and zombie defense Jeep gun and trying to keep it from becoming a crap magnet.
So to start I ordered a 870 Tactical 81191 pistol grip from Buds and it will be here Thursday. http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... 8.5+CYL+PGI went with this model because originaly I wanted to get the tax stamp for AOW and make a super shorty but started looking around at other builds and decided to go a different direction and planning on putting a magpul stock and upgrade a few things then have it cerakoted.
Since I don't actually have the gun yet I have a few questions that will help me start ordering parts.

Is there any legal issue putting a stock on a shotgun that left the factory with only a pistol grip? I am pretty sure that once I install a stock I can not get a AOW stamp I would need a SBS but honestly don't think it's worth the hassle, I am already waiting for my paperwork for a supressor.

I want to put a ghost ring sight and need to know if the receiver is already drilled or will I have to do it also what would you all suggest for a sight system. I am considering LPA, Scattergun, or Williams.

The description states this gun is 7+1 with 2 shot extension already installed. I have read the Remington extensions are good so no need to replace or worth the money to buy a Nordic? What about the length for a new spring and any suggestion for barrel clamp, I just don't like the look of the factory one.

I am trying to decide on cerekote color. I think I have decided on either FDE to match my Glock or grey or urban camo with black furniture. Any pictures of your weapons done?

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Synchronizor
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by Synchronizor » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:17 am

roamingaz wrote:Is there any legal issue putting a stock on a shotgun that left the factory with only a pistol grip? I am pretty sure that once I install a stock I can not get a AOW stamp I would need a SBS but honestly don't think it's worth the hassle, I am already waiting for my paperwork for a supressor.
Where exactly are you located? I'll assume for now that you're in a sensible part of the US, but you may have additional or alternate laws in your area.

According to the ATF, a pistol grip alone won't make a shotgun an AOW or SBS unless the barrel is less than 18" and/or the overall length is under 26". Also, a SBS is not the same thing as an AOW, there's a difference. An AOW shotgun would be something originally manufactured as a handgun or other exotic/unusual/novelty firearm, not an adapted shoulder weapon. A SBS is simply any shotgun below one or both of the minimum length limits. The 870 you bought is neither; it's just a normal shotgun, and you can put whatever furniture you want on it. If you want, you can modify it in the future to become a SBS, but it'll never be an AOW since it wasn't built as one originally.
roamingaz wrote:The description states this gun is 7+1 with 2 shot extension already installed. I have read the Remington extensions are good so no need to replace or worth the money to buy a Nordic? What about the length for a new spring and any suggestion for barrel clamp, I just don't like the look of the factory one.
The +2 extension makes the gun a 6+1, not a 7+1.

For a combat gun, I consider the Remington extensions to be the top of the heap. Save the aluminum extensions for hunting or competition builds and stick with the all-steel parts built specifically for military duty.

The Remington extensions are specifically designed to use the Remington extension springs. There's no point in using an aftermarket spring; some aftermarket springs won't work in Remington extensions, and the ones that will are not going to function any better or give you any more capacity than the original. The factory spring is plenty strong enough, uses a high pitch to resist kinks and reduce stress, and the extension tube has features that help extend spring life. If you simply have to upgrade the spring, the Marine Magnum extension spring is a more corrosion-resistant version of the standard extension spring, and can be ordered through Remington's parts department.

You can get clamps that'll let you attach anything from a sling to a light to a bayonet. There are lots of good options out there, it'll all depend on what you want it to do and how much you're willing to pay for it.

roamingaz
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by roamingaz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:29 am

I am in the gun loving state of Arizona, know there has been a lot of debate over the law of AOW vs SBS and just not worth it, I think a 18.5 barrel is short enough.
Thanks for the info on the spring and tube I will leave it as is.

Short Bus
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by Short Bus » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 am

Synchronizor wrote:According to the ATF, a pistol grip alone won't make a shotgun an AOW or SBS unless the barrel is less than 18" and/or the overall length is under 26". Also, a SBS is not the same thing as an AOW, there's a difference. An AOW shotgun would be something originally manufactured as a handgun or other exotic/unusual/novelty firearm, not an adapted shoulder weapon. A SBS is simply any shotgun below one or both of the minimum length limits. The 870 you bought is neither; it's just a normal shotgun, and you can put whatever furniture you want on it. If you want, you can modify it in the future to become a SBS, but it'll never be an AOW since it wasn't built as one originally
I'm no expert, but you might want to read this link for a little more info.

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

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Synchronizor
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by Synchronizor » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:32 am

Thanks for the link.

It seems - after extensive review and research - that if a non-NFA pistol-grip shotgun had only ever had a pistol grip installed on it, it could not be considered a "shotgun". So it could be modified at a later date to have a barrel less than 18" and/or an overall length less than 26" , and it would not be subject to the NFA as a "weapon made from a shotgun". Instead, it would be either be subject to the NFA as an "any other weapon" if it was judged or demonstrated to be concealable, or it would be a completely legal non-NFA firearm if it was not judged or demonstrated to be concealable.

The loophole in the latter case is very interesting, but not really anything that could be taken advantage of. The problem with trying to exploit this to create a non-NFA shotgun pistol is that the NFA doesn't have a specific, solid definition for conceal-ability when it comes to shotgun pistols. One of the letters from that blog post clearly states that 26" is only a presumptive standard for a minimum non-concealable length. It is not a hard rule as assumed in the blog, and there's no quantification of the concept in the official NFA handbook. This is where it goes from a legally defensible loophole to a dumb gamble.

Suppose a hypothetical someone gets it into their head to "beat the system", and makes a non-NFA shotgun pistol with a 14" barrel and an overall length of 26.5" as described in that blog post. Unfortunately, since there's no express definition for conceal-ability regarding AOW shotguns, a 26.5" overall length can be ruled as a concealable length at the discretion of the ATF, landing Mr. Clever in some deep trouble. All over a couple inches. I'll bet that measly $200 tax looks a lot more appealing in hindsight.

But regarding the AOW vs SBS distinction (which is what I assume you were referring to), I stand corrected; a shotgun that was not subject to the NFA at the time of its manufacture can be converted to an AOW at a later date as long as it was never fitted with a shoulder stock. However, the distinction really doesn't have any impact on Roamingaz's build. If he never puts a shoulder stock on it, he could have it made into an AOW shotgun pistol after paying a $200 making tax. If he put a shoulder stock on it, he couldn't make it into an AOW, but he could make it into a SBS that would be exactly the same gun for the same making tax of $200. Same gun, same price (barring some exploitation of the $5 transfer tax on an AOW that I won't try to speculate on).

roamingaz
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by roamingaz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:13 pm

Can anyone tell me the benefit of installing a Timney Trigger Fix vs. replacing just the spring ?
From what I have learned so far I should also replace the carrier spring any other internal parts to upgrade reliability and preformance ?

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Synchronizor
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by Synchronizor » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:48 am

roamingaz wrote:Can anyone tell me the benefit of installing a Timney Trigger Fix vs. replacing just the spring ?
It's supposed to be a more precision sear, with finer adjustment of the pull weight. The downside is it costs a lot. Sear springs are just $5 from Remington, so if you just want to change the weight of your trigger pull, ordering a different spring is a much better bang for your buck. My 870 came with a heavy sear spring that I use for HD, and I ordered a second, lighter sear spring that I swap in for trap shooting. Works fine for me, and I don't need to use any tools to change springs with the factory sear, they just pop in and out.

If you want to clean up your trigger so that is feels smoother or has less creep (and keep in mind this is a shotgun, not a precision rifle), I'd suggest having an actual gunsmith do a trigger job on your gun. The prices I've seen quoted for this are far less than the Timney kit.
roamingaz wrote:From what I have learned so far I should also replace the carrier spring any other internal parts to upgrade reliability and preformance ?
There's nothing wrong with the factory carrier dog follower spring, most people who recommend changing it for an extra-heavy one don't understand how the carrier works. The semi-automatic Remington 1100 uses the exact same carrier dog follower spring without any issues, cycling faster and harder there than it ever would in a pump gun. Putting a heavier spring in the 870 won't make the gun any more reliable, but it will stiffen up the action noticeably due to the increased spring force and part-to-part friction, and it will make the shell carrier harder to push up when loading or unloading the magazine (though that could be a benefit for some roles, by better keeping crap out of the gun's action if it gets dropped in the mud or snow).

I would consider the extra-heavy spring to be a good idea for police or military shotguns that will see very heavy use in critical roles where they need to be completely reliable even if they aren't maintained properly, with springs and other wear parts replaced at appropriate intervals. A heavier worn-out spring is better than a standard worn-out spring, and a stiffer action isn't going to be an issue for a trained soldier or police officer in a gunfight.

For privately-owned civilian 870s though, I usually recommend staying with the standard-weight carrier dog follower spring. I've tried all the different options in my gun, and found it runs best with the spring weight it was designed for (shocker). If your gun does see the tens or hundreds of thousands of cycles needed to wear the spring out, you can call Remington and they'll mail you a replacement for $4.00 (or free) that'll pop right in in a minute or two with no special tools. If you're preparing for the end of the world or something, just stash a couple spare springs with the rest of your replacement parts.


A lot of people upgrade their magazine followers. I've never had an issue with the factory follower, but I prefer aftermarket followers that make it easier to tell by touch when the magazine is empty. There are a ton of options out there, and we've had several threads discussing them (here's one). I use an S&J Hardware follower in my gun, and consider them to be the best polymer followers out there, but there are a bunch of metal options of you can't trust polymer. If you do decide to use a metal follower though, I'd suggest finding one that doesn't look and feel like a shell base, for obvious reasons.

Dr. Marneaus
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by Dr. Marneaus » Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:28 pm

Hi.

I don't have any pics of FDE but here is a home done dura coat urban camo job I did on one of my more recent shotguns (sold it it tovbuy my new 870).

Looks pretty darn good in person and was fun to do

Image

roamingaz
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by roamingaz » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:11 pm

That does look good! The rear sight looks like a LPA? what did you use for a front sight?
I won a ebay auction for a rear LPA ghost ring sight and trying to figure out the front sight. SO far I am looking at Scattergun Tech or HiViz.

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Vitaly
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Re: Info and suggestions needed for my build

Post by Vitaly » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:07 pm

Dr. Marneaus, that is great paint job!
http://www.Rem870.com - Blog about the Remington 870 Shotgun

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